U.S. Politics episode 4: A New Thread

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Comments


  • KingKobra said:
    Vanslewel said:
    Thomas said:
    It is very much about religion.  Go to the Middle East and see how Islam plays a role.  I have conversed with Iraqis, Afghanis, Pakistanis, Iranians, and a few Saudis...it is about Islam.  When your religious text tells you to kill apostates and make people convert to Islam or kill them, don't you think that is a little inciting?  False equivalencies like saying a white christian killing people is no different than a Islamic person killing people are completely false.  The Charleston killer didn't do it in the name of the bible or Jesus.  


    When people are literally screaming Allah Akbar as they slaughter infidels, you don't think that is about Islam?  Islam has a major problem, everyone knows it, but the left is too afraid to admit it.
    Islam, or any other religion/ideology, is just a signifier. Individuals and religious sects can interpret a particular religious text or a prophet's words in a million different ways. My kind and loving aunt, the KKK, Pope Francis, and the Lord Resistance Army all call themselves Christians, and act as they believe true Christians should act, but that means very different things to each of them. History is rife with violent strains of every religion. It is specific historical circumstances that lead to violence. While there are specific religious figures who identify as Muslim who peddle violent ideologies, it is not accurate to refer to a singular "Islam." 
    That last sentence is probably the MOST important one. Generalizing what extremists do to an entire group of people is no better than what many of them do to radicalize their followers. 
    It isn't generalizing when you can see it in their religious texts.  You can read the lines in the Quran.  If Christianity stuck to the Old Testament, you could probably bet that it would have a more violent following.

    "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

    "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

    I mean, I could easily go on.  You're telling me people devout in the faith aren't going to read this and say "hmm, killing non-Muslims will make Allah happy and get me to heaven."??

    Saudi Arabia is the number 1 exporter of Wahhabism in the world.

    Iran and Pakistan are Islamic Republics and both government support terrorist networks....could you imagine if the US labeled itself a Christian Democracy?

    I don't even need to get into their treatment of women and gay people, which is atrocious.  

    People like to jump to the whataboutism by deflecting to Christianity because they feel better about themselves insulting what they know more about.  Would you say the epidemic of sexual assault in the Catholic church IS NOT a religious issue?  No,because it is, and by saying so doesn't mean you are degrading every Catholic.  Same for Islam.  Islam has  HUGE problem globally right now, and it doesn't mean every Islamic person is bad.  

    When Maajid Nawaz speaks out against the problems of Islam, how can you tell him he is wrong?  He has been in a terrorist network, he is a Muslim, yet he, along with a lot of others, are standing up and saying there is a problem and it needs to be fixed and it needs to be led by Muslims to reform the problems.  
    As I said before, there are a million of different ways to interpret a passage in a religious text, and most followers rely on their religious leaders for interpretation. I live two minutes away from a mosque. The people who attend it are my neighbors. They have never tried to convert me, nor have they ever threatened to kill me, so my own personal experience makes it impossible for me to believe that reading the Quran ipso facto turns people into murderous religious fanatics. 

    I brought up Christianity not to insult it but to illustrate how it isn't really feasible from an analytical perspective to treat any religion with one billion+ adherents as a single entity. 

    If you're interested in the psychology of terrorism, I suggest reading 'Psychology of Terrorism,' by Bruce Bongar, et al. 
    My first graduate school course was called "Psychology of Terrorism" and I had to read the book.  Didn't change my opinion that the larger issue is that non-radical Muslims prefer to stay quiet than stand up against radicalism.  Nobody is saying arrest all Muslims.  People who are outspoken towards Islam criticize their failure to act and police their own.  Muslim clerics shouldn't be the ruling body of communities, but they are, because their faith prefers to restrict freedoms than promote it.  I work with Muslims who live in a predominantly Christian neighborhood.  They are free to do what they want.  The Muslims that I have met who live in places like New York or St Paul aren't allowed to speak out or else they will be verbally, and sometimes physically, assaulted by their neighbors. 
    The majority of victims of ISIS and Al Qaeda terrorism are Muslims. The majority of language analysts in the U.S. intelligence services are Muslim. The majority of informants and double agents who provide human intelligence about the activities of terror groups are Muslim. And, the top prosecutor of terrorists in the US just happens to be Muslim. Your contention that non-radical Muslims aren't doing anything is not accurate. 
    Phoebes89
  • ThomasThomas North Carolina
    Vanslewel said:

    KingKobra said:
    Vanslewel said:
    Thomas said:
    It is very much about religion.  Go to the Middle East and see how Islam plays a role.  I have conversed with Iraqis, Afghanis, Pakistanis, Iranians, and a few Saudis...it is about Islam.  When your religious text tells you to kill apostates and make people convert to Islam or kill them, don't you think that is a little inciting?  False equivalencies like saying a white christian killing people is no different than a Islamic person killing people are completely false.  The Charleston killer didn't do it in the name of the bible or Jesus.  


    When people are literally screaming Allah Akbar as they slaughter infidels, you don't think that is about Islam?  Islam has a major problem, everyone knows it, but the left is too afraid to admit it.
    Islam, or any other religion/ideology, is just a signifier. Individuals and religious sects can interpret a particular religious text or a prophet's words in a million different ways. My kind and loving aunt, the KKK, Pope Francis, and the Lord Resistance Army all call themselves Christians, and act as they believe true Christians should act, but that means very different things to each of them. History is rife with violent strains of every religion. It is specific historical circumstances that lead to violence. While there are specific religious figures who identify as Muslim who peddle violent ideologies, it is not accurate to refer to a singular "Islam." 
    That last sentence is probably the MOST important one. Generalizing what extremists do to an entire group of people is no better than what many of them do to radicalize their followers. 
    It isn't generalizing when you can see it in their religious texts.  You can read the lines in the Quran.  If Christianity stuck to the Old Testament, you could probably bet that it would have a more violent following.

    "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

    "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

    I mean, I could easily go on.  You're telling me people devout in the faith aren't going to read this and say "hmm, killing non-Muslims will make Allah happy and get me to heaven."??

    Saudi Arabia is the number 1 exporter of Wahhabism in the world.

    Iran and Pakistan are Islamic Republics and both government support terrorist networks....could you imagine if the US labeled itself a Christian Democracy?

    I don't even need to get into their treatment of women and gay people, which is atrocious.  

    People like to jump to the whataboutism by deflecting to Christianity because they feel better about themselves insulting what they know more about.  Would you say the epidemic of sexual assault in the Catholic church IS NOT a religious issue?  No,because it is, and by saying so doesn't mean you are degrading every Catholic.  Same for Islam.  Islam has  HUGE problem globally right now, and it doesn't mean every Islamic person is bad.  

    When Maajid Nawaz speaks out against the problems of Islam, how can you tell him he is wrong?  He has been in a terrorist network, he is a Muslim, yet he, along with a lot of others, are standing up and saying there is a problem and it needs to be fixed and it needs to be led by Muslims to reform the problems.  
    As I said before, there are a million of different ways to interpret a passage in a religious text, and most followers rely on their religious leaders for interpretation. I live two minutes away from a mosque. The people who attend it are my neighbors. They have never tried to convert me, nor have they ever threatened to kill me, so my own personal experience makes it impossible for me to believe that reading the Quran ipso facto turns people into murderous religious fanatics. 

    I brought up Christianity not to insult it but to illustrate how it isn't really feasible from an analytical perspective to treat any religion with one billion+ adherents as a single entity. 

    If you're interested in the psychology of terrorism, I suggest reading 'Psychology of Terrorism,' by Bruce Bongar, et al. 
    My first graduate school course was called "Psychology of Terrorism" and I had to read the book.  Didn't change my opinion that the larger issue is that non-radical Muslims prefer to stay quiet than stand up against radicalism.  Nobody is saying arrest all Muslims.  People who are outspoken towards Islam criticize their failure to act and police their own.  Muslim clerics shouldn't be the ruling body of communities, but they are, because their faith prefers to restrict freedoms than promote it.  I work with Muslims who live in a predominantly Christian neighborhood.  They are free to do what they want.  The Muslims that I have met who live in places like New York or St Paul aren't allowed to speak out or else they will be verbally, and sometimes physically, assaulted by their neighbors. 
    The majority of victims of ISIS and Al Qaeda terrorism are Muslims. The majority of language analysts in the U.S. intelligence services are Muslim. The majority of informants and double agents who provide human intelligence about the activities of terror groups are Muslim. And, the top prosecutor of terrorists in the US just happens to be Muslim. Your contention that non-radical Muslims aren't doing anything is not accurate. 
    You just named a couple thousand out of billions.  There are some that are doing good stuff, but the overwhelming majority are not doing anything.  I already provided examples of Muslim neighborhoods refusing to call police when they know one of their neighbors is about to conduct a terrorist act.  They didn't speak up when the Charlie Hebdo shooters were sleeping next door.  That happens regularly.  Do you think that is not a problem?  
  • ThomasThomas North Carolina
    edited November 2017
    Frakkin T said:
    You're talking very broadly about the problems with an entire religion. What I am saying is that if you say American Muslims need to condemn Muslim terrorists, you also need to say that white americans need to condemn white terrorists or explain to me why they don't. 
    I already addressed that.  You just ignored it.  You are talking about a race of people and comparing it to a religion.  Americans denounce when white Americans commit and act of terror.  I ask to provide me with any proof of credible Americans leader supporting or celebrating the Vegas shooter...I will wait.  

    You are also deflecting from my main point.  Christians and whites have nothing to do with Islam having an issue with terrorism.  When you criticize a Republican do you also require yourself to criticize a Democrat?  I doubt it.  That is what you are doing now.
    Brawn
  • Frakkin TFrakkin T Currently Offline
    wow talk about missing the entire point--i'm out of this convo
    KingKobraCretanBull
  • ThomasThomas North Carolina
    edited November 2017
    Frakkin T said:
    wow talk about missing the entire point--i'm out of this convo
    Fair enough.
  • Frakkin T said:
    You're talking very broadly about the problems with an entire religion. What I am saying is that if you say American Muslims need to condemn Muslim terrorists, you also need to say that white americans need to condemn white terrorists or explain to me why they don't. 
    It took me a while to accept it, but the amount of white terrorism is miniscule in comparison to Islamic terrorism if you apply the true definition of the term terrorism. The vegas shooting wasn’t terrorism. It was a massacre, an act of horrific violence, and the actions of a deranged individual, but it wasn’t terrorism (based on the information we have now). Terrorism is violence with an ideological , religious, or political motivation. You can say that the planned parenthood shooter was a terrorist, the white supremacist running down a protestor is a terrorist and the kid shooting up the black church was a terrorist. But the difference is that the vast vast majority of people are happy to denounce those ideologies: white supremacy, extremist Christian views, but the frustration when it comes to Islamic terrorism is that people on the left (I’m a liberal) refuse to denounce an obvious cancer in the Islamic religion. A cancer is unique to that specific religion. And white people/ non-Muslims cannot solve this, we need the Muslim community to come together an stop these extremists. But the amount of extremist continue to grow and the moderate Islamic stand by silent because deep down the extremists are simply following the teachings of the religion. 

    The difference between Islam and Christianity is that Islam is LITERALLY THE WORD OF GOD AND WRITTEN BY GOD (according to them). The Bible is the word of god transcribed by man. There is room for far more interpretation in Christianity than there is in Islam because the scriptures are directly from allah. This allows the moderate to justify the atrocities of the extremists because they’re simply following the Quran.
    ThomasBrawn
  • Thomas said:
    Vanslewel said:

    KingKobra said:
    Vanslewel said:
    Thomas said:
    It is very much about religion.  Go to the Middle East and see how Islam plays a role.  I have conversed with Iraqis, Afghanis, Pakistanis, Iranians, and a few Saudis...it is about Islam.  When your religious text tells you to kill apostates and make people convert to Islam or kill them, don't you think that is a little inciting?  False equivalencies like saying a white christian killing people is no different than a Islamic person killing people are completely false.  The Charleston killer didn't do it in the name of the bible or Jesus.  


    When people are literally screaming Allah Akbar as they slaughter infidels, you don't think that is about Islam?  Islam has a major problem, everyone knows it, but the left is too afraid to admit it.
    Islam, or any other religion/ideology, is just a signifier. Individuals and religious sects can interpret a particular religious text or a prophet's words in a million different ways. My kind and loving aunt, the KKK, Pope Francis, and the Lord Resistance Army all call themselves Christians, and act as they believe true Christians should act, but that means very different things to each of them. History is rife with violent strains of every religion. It is specific historical circumstances that lead to violence. While there are specific religious figures who identify as Muslim who peddle violent ideologies, it is not accurate to refer to a singular "Islam." 
    That last sentence is probably the MOST important one. Generalizing what extremists do to an entire group of people is no better than what many of them do to radicalize their followers. 
    It isn't generalizing when you can see it in their religious texts.  You can read the lines in the Quran.  If Christianity stuck to the Old Testament, you could probably bet that it would have a more violent following.

    "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

    "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

    I mean, I could easily go on.  You're telling me people devout in the faith aren't going to read this and say "hmm, killing non-Muslims will make Allah happy and get me to heaven."??

    Saudi Arabia is the number 1 exporter of Wahhabism in the world.

    Iran and Pakistan are Islamic Republics and both government support terrorist networks....could you imagine if the US labeled itself a Christian Democracy?

    I don't even need to get into their treatment of women and gay people, which is atrocious.  

    People like to jump to the whataboutism by deflecting to Christianity because they feel better about themselves insulting what they know more about.  Would you say the epidemic of sexual assault in the Catholic church IS NOT a religious issue?  No,because it is, and by saying so doesn't mean you are degrading every Catholic.  Same for Islam.  Islam has  HUGE problem globally right now, and it doesn't mean every Islamic person is bad.  

    When Maajid Nawaz speaks out against the problems of Islam, how can you tell him he is wrong?  He has been in a terrorist network, he is a Muslim, yet he, along with a lot of others, are standing up and saying there is a problem and it needs to be fixed and it needs to be led by Muslims to reform the problems.  
    As I said before, there are a million of different ways to interpret a passage in a religious text, and most followers rely on their religious leaders for interpretation. I live two minutes away from a mosque. The people who attend it are my neighbors. They have never tried to convert me, nor have they ever threatened to kill me, so my own personal experience makes it impossible for me to believe that reading the Quran ipso facto turns people into murderous religious fanatics. 

    I brought up Christianity not to insult it but to illustrate how it isn't really feasible from an analytical perspective to treat any religion with one billion+ adherents as a single entity. 

    If you're interested in the psychology of terrorism, I suggest reading 'Psychology of Terrorism,' by Bruce Bongar, et al. 
    My first graduate school course was called "Psychology of Terrorism" and I had to read the book.  Didn't change my opinion that the larger issue is that non-radical Muslims prefer to stay quiet than stand up against radicalism.  Nobody is saying arrest all Muslims.  People who are outspoken towards Islam criticize their failure to act and police their own.  Muslim clerics shouldn't be the ruling body of communities, but they are, because their faith prefers to restrict freedoms than promote it.  I work with Muslims who live in a predominantly Christian neighborhood.  They are free to do what they want.  The Muslims that I have met who live in places like New York or St Paul aren't allowed to speak out or else they will be verbally, and sometimes physically, assaulted by their neighbors. 
    The majority of victims of ISIS and Al Qaeda terrorism are Muslims. The majority of language analysts in the U.S. intelligence services are Muslim. The majority of informants and double agents who provide human intelligence about the activities of terror groups are Muslim. And, the top prosecutor of terrorists in the US just happens to be Muslim. Your contention that non-radical Muslims aren't doing anything is not accurate. 
    You just named a couple thousand out of billions.  There are some that are doing good stuff, but the overwhelming majority are not doing anything.  I already provided examples of Muslim neighborhoods refusing to call police when they know one of their neighbors is about to conduct a terrorist act.  They didn't speak up when the Charlie Hebdo shooters were sleeping next door.  That happens regularly.  Do you think that is not a problem?  
    The majority of non-Muslims aren't doing anything to combat terrorism either, because most people, regardless of faith or political ideology, aren't really in a position to do anything. We live our lives and put our trust in the intelligence services, military, and law enforcement to combat terrorism and other threats to our society. I haven't done anything in the past year to help combat terrorism, and most people I know haven't either. I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you haven't either. 

    You assert that Muslim neighbors refused to call police on the Charlie Hebdo shooters. Is there a reputable news source you're getting your information from? 

    There are 3.3 million Muslims in the United States. That's roughly the population of Connecticut. A handful have committed acts of violence. From a logical perspective, it simply doesn't make sense to condemn millions of individuals for the crimes of a few. 
  • Vanslewel said:

    You assert that Muslim neighbors refused to call police on the Charlie Hebdo shooters. Is there a reputable news source you're getting your information from? 

    There are 3.3 million Muslims in the United States. That's roughly the population of Connecticut. A handful have committed acts of violence. From a logical perspective, it simply doesn't make sense to condemn millions of individuals for the crimes of a few. 
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2016/04/15/world/europe/poll-british-muslims.amp.html

    Brawn
  • ThomasThomas North Carolina
    edited November 2017

    You just named a couple thousand out of billions.  There are some that are doing good stuff, but the overwhelming majority are not doing anything.  I already provided examples of Muslim neighborhoods refusing to call police when they know one of their neighbors is about to conduct a terrorist act.  They didn't speak up when the Charlie Hebdo shooters were sleeping next door.  That happens regularly.  Do you think that is not a problem?  
    The majority of non-Muslims aren't doing anything to combat terrorism either, because most people, regardless of faith or political ideology, aren't really in a position to do anything. We live our lives and put our trust in the intelligence services, military, and law enforcement to combat terrorism and other threats to our society. I haven't done anything in the past year to help combat terrorism, and most people I know haven't either. I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you haven't either. 

    You assert that Muslim neighbors refused to call police on the Charlie Hebdo shooters. Is there a reputable news source you're getting your information from? 

    There are 3.3 million Muslims in the United States. That's roughly the population of Connecticut. A handful have committed acts of violence. From a logical perspective, it simply doesn't make sense to condemn millions of individuals for the crimes of a few. 

    Correction, it was the Paris attack last year, not the Charlie Hebdo shooting.  But here is a link.  There are a lot more examples similar to this you can find.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/19/captured-paris-attacks-suspect-abdeslam-hid-in-belgiums-molenbeek.html

    Again, you are deflecting.  When I say Muslims aren't doing enough to condone their own issues, you automatically respond with "well non-Muslims aren't either" as if that is a valid response.  As I posted earlier, in order to criticize Republicans do I also need to criticize Democrats too?  No.

    Also, since you ignored what I have written about 10 times, I am not condoning Muslims.  I am simply stating that their religion has a lot of issues and they need to step up to combat them.
  • Frakkin TFrakkin T Currently Offline
    "...first cast out the beam out of thine own eye;
    and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
    -Matthew 7:5
  • Frakkin T said:
    "...first cast out the beam out of thine own eye;
    and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
    -Matthew 7:5
    What a simplistic passage for a complex problem. 
  • Frakkin TFrakkin T Currently Offline
    edited November 2017
    Everyone's talking about what Muslims need to be doing--how about you get your own house in order first? What are you doing to fight the rising tide of white supremacism here at home? Why do people feel the need to police the behavior of others?
    Phoebes89
  • Frakkin T said:
    Everyone's talking about what Muslims need to be doing--how about you get your own house in order first? Why do people feel the need to police the behavior of others?
    When a religion convinces people to fly planes into 2 buildings, killing thousands, it kind of becomes other people’s issues. All religions have their crazies and their history of cruelty, it’s just that Islam is the greatest offender at the moment. 
    Brawn
  • Thomas said:

    You just named a couple thousand out of billions.  There are some that are doing good stuff, but the overwhelming majority are not doing anything.  I already provided examples of Muslim neighborhoods refusing to call police when they know one of their neighbors is about to conduct a terrorist act.  They didn't speak up when the Charlie Hebdo shooters were sleeping next door.  That happens regularly.  Do you think that is not a problem?  
    The majority of non-Muslims aren't doing anything to combat terrorism either, because most people, regardless of faith or political ideology, aren't really in a position to do anything. We live our lives and put our trust in the intelligence services, military, and law enforcement to combat terrorism and other threats to our society. I haven't done anything in the past year to help combat terrorism, and most people I know haven't either. I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you haven't either. 

    You assert that Muslim neighbors refused to call police on the Charlie Hebdo shooters. Is there a reputable news source you're getting your information from? 

    There are 3.3 million Muslims in the United States. That's roughly the population of Connecticut. A handful have committed acts of violence. From a logical perspective, it simply doesn't make sense to condemn millions of individuals for the crimes of a few. 

    Correction, it was the Paris attack last year, not the Charlie Hebdo shooting.  But here is a link.  There are a lot more examples similar to this you can find.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/19/captured-paris-attacks-suspect-abdeslam-hid-in-belgiums-molenbeek.html

    Again, you are deflecting.  When I say Muslims aren't doing enough to condone their own issues, you automatically respond with "well non-Muslims aren't either" as if that is a valid response.  As I posted earlier, in order to criticize Republicans do I also need to criticize Democrats too?  No.

    Also, since you ignored what I have written about 10 times, I am not condoning Muslims.  I am simply stating that their religion has a lot of issues and they need to step up to combat them.
    The article mentions that the suspect's associates and friends helped to conceal him. It does not say that neighbors knew he was in hiding there. 

    I'm not trying to deflect. I'm just pointing out that your assertion that the majority of Muslims aren't doing anything Is holding them to an unfair standard. What, pray tell, is a doctor, student, or insurance salesman living in suburban Virginia supposed to do when they don't have any specific information about someone who's been radicalized? And why should my Muslim neighbor be condemned for doing nothing when I'm not doing anything either? 

    My only quibbles with you are that 1) blanket assertions that Muslims aren't doing enough to combat terrorism are not accurate (see details about the current fight against ISIS) and that 2) that terrorists belong to a few sub-sects of a huge religion that has over a billion followers, so blaming a religion makes no logical sense.


    CretanBullKingKobraPhoebes89DaveyMac
  • Vanslewel said:
    Thomas said:

    You just named a couple thousand out of billions.  There are some that are doing good stuff, but the overwhelming majority are not doing anything.  I already provided examples of Muslim neighborhoods refusing to call police when they know one of their neighbors is about to conduct a terrorist act.  They didn't speak up when the Charlie Hebdo shooters were sleeping next door.  That happens regularly.  Do you think that is not a problem?  
    The majority of non-Muslims aren't doing anything to combat terrorism either, because most people, regardless of faith or political ideology, aren't really in a position to do anything. We live our lives and put our trust in the intelligence services, military, and law enforcement to combat terrorism and other threats to our society. I haven't done anything in the past year to help combat terrorism, and most people I know haven't either. I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you haven't either. 

    You assert that Muslim neighbors refused to call police on the Charlie Hebdo shooters. Is there a reputable news source you're getting your information from? 

    There are 3.3 million Muslims in the United States. That's roughly the population of Connecticut. A handful have committed acts of violence. From a logical perspective, it simply doesn't make sense to condemn millions of individuals for the crimes of a few. 

    Correction, it was the Paris attack last year, not the Charlie Hebdo shooting.  But here is a link.  There are a lot more examples similar to this you can find.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/19/captured-paris-attacks-suspect-abdeslam-hid-in-belgiums-molenbeek.html

    Again, you are deflecting.  When I say Muslims aren't doing enough to condone their own issues, you automatically respond with "well non-Muslims aren't either" as if that is a valid response.  As I posted earlier, in order to criticize Republicans do I also need to criticize Democrats too?  No.

    Also, since you ignored what I have written about 10 times, I am not condoning Muslims.  I am simply stating that their religion has a lot of issues and they need to step up to combat them.
    The article mentions that the suspect's associates and friends helped to conceal him. It does not say that neighbors knew he was in hiding there. 

    I'm not trying to deflect. I'm just pointing out that your assertion that the majority of Muslims aren't doing anything Is holding them to an unfair standard. What, pray tell, is a doctor, student, or insurance salesman living in suburban Virginia supposed to do when they don't have any specific information about someone who's been radicalized? And why should my Muslim neighbor be condemned for doing nothing when I'm not doing anything either? 

    My only quibbles with you are that 1) blanket assertions that Muslims aren't doing enough to combat terrorism are not accurate (see details about the current fight against ISIS) and that 2) that terrorists belong to a few sub-sects of a huge religion that has over a billion followers, so blaming a religion makes no logical sense.


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2016/04/15/world/europe/poll-british-muslims.amp.html

    You do bring up a good point about what random suburbia dwelling Muslims are meant to do about the extremists in their religion— I don’t really have an answer for that. The problem I see is the data in the article.
  • gguenot said:
    Vanslewel said:
    Thomas said:

    You just named a couple thousand out of billions.  There are some that are doing good stuff, but the overwhelming majority are not doing anything.  I already provided examples of Muslim neighborhoods refusing to call police when they know one of their neighbors is about to conduct a terrorist act.  They didn't speak up when the Charlie Hebdo shooters were sleeping next door.  That happens regularly.  Do you think that is not a problem?  
    The majority of non-Muslims aren't doing anything to combat terrorism either, because most people, regardless of faith or political ideology, aren't really in a position to do anything. We live our lives and put our trust in the intelligence services, military, and law enforcement to combat terrorism and other threats to our society. I haven't done anything in the past year to help combat terrorism, and most people I know haven't either. I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you haven't either. 

    You assert that Muslim neighbors refused to call police on the Charlie Hebdo shooters. Is there a reputable news source you're getting your information from? 

    There are 3.3 million Muslims in the United States. That's roughly the population of Connecticut. A handful have committed acts of violence. From a logical perspective, it simply doesn't make sense to condemn millions of individuals for the crimes of a few. 

    Correction, it was the Paris attack last year, not the Charlie Hebdo shooting.  But here is a link.  There are a lot more examples similar to this you can find.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/19/captured-paris-attacks-suspect-abdeslam-hid-in-belgiums-molenbeek.html

    Again, you are deflecting.  When I say Muslims aren't doing enough to condone their own issues, you automatically respond with "well non-Muslims aren't either" as if that is a valid response.  As I posted earlier, in order to criticize Republicans do I also need to criticize Democrats too?  No.

    Also, since you ignored what I have written about 10 times, I am not condoning Muslims.  I am simply stating that their religion has a lot of issues and they need to step up to combat them.
    The article mentions that the suspect's associates and friends helped to conceal him. It does not say that neighbors knew he was in hiding there. 

    I'm not trying to deflect. I'm just pointing out that your assertion that the majority of Muslims aren't doing anything Is holding them to an unfair standard. What, pray tell, is a doctor, student, or insurance salesman living in suburban Virginia supposed to do when they don't have any specific information about someone who's been radicalized? And why should my Muslim neighbor be condemned for doing nothing when I'm not doing anything either? 

    My only quibbles with you are that 1) blanket assertions that Muslims aren't doing enough to combat terrorism are not accurate (see details about the current fight against ISIS) and that 2) that terrorists belong to a few sub-sects of a huge religion that has over a billion followers, so blaming a religion makes no logical sense.


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2016/04/15/world/europe/poll-british-muslims.amp.html

    You do bring up a good point about what random suburbia dwelling Muslims are meant to do about the extremists in their religion— I don’t really have an answer for that. The problem I see is the data in the article.
    The results of the poll are concerning, but I think the concerns about the poll's methodology are valid. A geographically specific poll is not representative of the views of British Muslims as a whole. After all, the views of Roy Moore and the folks in Alabama aren't representative of the entire U.S. The averaged results of several dozen polls would provide a clearer picture. 
    Phoebes89
  • Vanslewel said:
    gguenot said:
    Vanslewel said:
    Thomas said:

    You just named a couple thousand out of billions.  There are some that are doing good stuff, but the overwhelming majority are not doing anything.  I already provided examples of Muslim neighborhoods refusing to call police when they know one of their neighbors is about to conduct a terrorist act.  They didn't speak up when the Charlie Hebdo shooters were sleeping next door.  That happens regularly.  Do you think that is not a problem?  
    The majority of non-Muslims aren't doing anything to combat terrorism either, because most people, regardless of faith or political ideology, aren't really in a position to do anything. We live our lives and put our trust in the intelligence services, military, and law enforcement to combat terrorism and other threats to our society. I haven't done anything in the past year to help combat terrorism, and most people I know haven't either. I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you haven't either. 

    You assert that Muslim neighbors refused to call police on the Charlie Hebdo shooters. Is there a reputable news source you're getting your information from? 

    There are 3.3 million Muslims in the United States. That's roughly the population of Connecticut. A handful have committed acts of violence. From a logical perspective, it simply doesn't make sense to condemn millions of individuals for the crimes of a few. 

    Correction, it was the Paris attack last year, not the Charlie Hebdo shooting.  But here is a link.  There are a lot more examples similar to this you can find.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/19/captured-paris-attacks-suspect-abdeslam-hid-in-belgiums-molenbeek.html

    Again, you are deflecting.  When I say Muslims aren't doing enough to condone their own issues, you automatically respond with "well non-Muslims aren't either" as if that is a valid response.  As I posted earlier, in order to criticize Republicans do I also need to criticize Democrats too?  No.

    Also, since you ignored what I have written about 10 times, I am not condoning Muslims.  I am simply stating that their religion has a lot of issues and they need to step up to combat them.
    The article mentions that the suspect's associates and friends helped to conceal him. It does not say that neighbors knew he was in hiding there. 

    I'm not trying to deflect. I'm just pointing out that your assertion that the majority of Muslims aren't doing anything Is holding them to an unfair standard. What, pray tell, is a doctor, student, or insurance salesman living in suburban Virginia supposed to do when they don't have any specific information about someone who's been radicalized? And why should my Muslim neighbor be condemned for doing nothing when I'm not doing anything either? 

    My only quibbles with you are that 1) blanket assertions that Muslims aren't doing enough to combat terrorism are not accurate (see details about the current fight against ISIS) and that 2) that terrorists belong to a few sub-sects of a huge religion that has over a billion followers, so blaming a religion makes no logical sense.


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2016/04/15/world/europe/poll-british-muslims.amp.html

    You do bring up a good point about what random suburbia dwelling Muslims are meant to do about the extremists in their religion— I don’t really have an answer for that. The problem I see is the data in the article.
    The results of the poll are concerning, but I think the concerns about the poll's methodology are valid. A geographically specific poll is not representative of the views of British Muslims as a whole. After all, the views of Roy Moore and the folks in Alabama aren't representative of the entire U.S. The averaged results of several dozen polls would provide a clearer picture. 
    Yea that’s true. It does seem like some cherry picking might have taken place .
  • Continue to apply pressure to help reform their religious practice from the inside?  Nobody's going to clean up regressive Islam but Muslims.

    gguenot said:
    Vanslewel said:
    Thomas said:



    https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2016/04/15/world/europe/poll-british-muslims.amp.html

    You do bring up a good point about what random suburbia dwelling Muslims are meant to do about the extremists in their religion— I don’t really have an answer for that. The problem I see is the data in the article.

    Brawn
  • gguenot said:
    Frakkin T said:
    You're talking very broadly about the problems with an entire religion. What I am saying is that if you say American Muslims need to condemn Muslim terrorists, you also need to say that white americans need to condemn white terrorists or explain to me why they don't. 
    It took me a while to accept it, but the amount of white terrorism is miniscule in comparison to Islamic terrorism if you apply the true definition of the term terrorism. The vegas shooting wasn’t terrorism. It was a massacre, an act of horrific violence, and the actions of a deranged individual, but it wasn’t terrorism (based on the information we have now). Terrorism is violence with an ideological , religious, or political motivation. You can say that the planned parenthood shooter was a terrorist, the white supremacist running down a protestor is a terrorist and the kid shooting up the black church was a terrorist. But the difference is that the vast vast majority of people are happy to denounce those ideologies: white supremacy, extremist Christian views, but the frustration when it comes to Islamic terrorism is that people on the left (I’m a liberal) refuse to denounce an obvious cancer in the Islamic religion. A cancer is unique to that specific religion. And white people/ non-Muslims cannot solve this, we need the Muslim community to come together an stop these extremists. But the amount of extremist continue to grow and the moderate Islamic stand by silent because deep down the extremists are simply following the teachings of the religion. 

    The difference between Islam and Christianity is that Islam is LITERALLY THE WORD OF GOD AND WRITTEN BY GOD (according to them). The Bible is the word of god transcribed by man. There is room for far more interpretation in Christianity than there is in Islam because the scriptures are directly from allah. This allows the moderate to justify the atrocities of the extremists because they’re simply following the Quran.

    Thomas said:
    KingKobra said:
    Vanslewel said:
    Thomas said:
    It is very much about religion.  Go to the Middle East and see how Islam plays a role.  I have conversed with Iraqis, Afghanis, Pakistanis, Iranians, and a few Saudis...it is about Islam.  When your religious text tells you to kill apostates and make people convert to Islam or kill them, don't you think that is a little inciting?  False equivalencies like saying a white christian killing people is no different than a Islamic person killing people are completely false.  The Charleston killer didn't do it in the name of the bible or Jesus.  


    When people are literally screaming Allah Akbar as they slaughter infidels, you don't think that is about Islam?  Islam has a major problem, everyone knows it, but the left is too afraid to admit it.
    Islam, or any other religion/ideology, is just a signifier. Individuals and religious sects can interpret a particular religious text or a prophet's words in a million different ways. My kind and loving aunt, the KKK, Pope Francis, and the Lord Resistance Army all call themselves Christians, and act as they believe true Christians should act, but that means very different things to each of them. History is rife with violent strains of every religion. It is specific historical circumstances that lead to violence. While there are specific religious figures who identify as Muslim who peddle violent ideologies, it is not accurate to refer to a singular "Islam." 
    That last sentence is probably the MOST important one. Generalizing what extremists do to an entire group of people is no better than what many of them do to radicalize their followers. 
    It isn't generalizing when you can see it in their religious texts.  You can read the lines in the Quran.  If Christianity stuck to the Old Testament, you could probably bet that it would have a more violent following.

    "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

    "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

    I mean, I could easily go on.  You're telling me people devout in the faith aren't going to read this and say "hmm, killing non-Muslims will make Allah happy and get me to heaven."??

    Saudi Arabia is the number 1 exporter of Wahhabism in the world.

    Iran and Pakistan are Islamic Republics and both government support terrorist networks....could you imagine if the US labeled itself a Christian Democracy?

    I don't even need to get into their treatment of women and gay people, which is atrocious.  

    People like to jump to the whataboutism by deflecting to Christianity because they feel better about themselves insulting what they know more about.  Would you say the epidemic of sexual assault in the Catholic church IS NOT a religious issue?  No,because it is, and by saying so doesn't mean you are degrading every Catholic.  Same for Islam.  Islam has  HUGE problem globally right now, and it doesn't mean every Islamic person is bad.  

    When Maajid Nawaz speaks out against the problems of Islam, how can you tell him he is wrong?  He has been in a terrorist network, he is a Muslim, yet he, along with a lot of others, are standing up and saying there is a problem and it needs to be fixed and it needs to be led by Muslims to reform the problems.  
    You sincerely have no clue what you are talking about. The passages you are talking about are taken completely out of context. It is very much against the religion to kill other people, and is especially against the religion to kill other people of Abrahamic religions. 

    The passages you have quoted refer to a very specific time in the very early stages of the religion. At the time the Muslims were being persecuted against by the pagans who also lived in the region at the time. The pagans were increasing in violence and the passages were almost like a call to the Muslims to defend themselves, you can see how this would be a crisis of faith is very much is the opposite of what. It is being twisted to be used in a modern times when it shouldn’t be. 

    I am a former Muslim, went to Islamic school and certainly  have my issues with the religion. I also lived in Saudi Arabia for a year. It really angers me when people twist things to fit a certain agenda 
    CretanBullJaimieT
  • gguenot said:
    Frakkin T said:
    You're talking very broadly about the problems with an entire religion. What I am saying is that if you say American Muslims need to condemn Muslim terrorists, you also need to say that white americans need to condemn white terrorists or explain to me why they don't. 
    It took me a while to accept it, but the amount of white terrorism is miniscule in comparison to Islamic terrorism if you apply the true definition of the term terrorism. The vegas shooting wasn’t terrorism. It was a massacre, an act of horrific violence, and the actions of a deranged individual, but it wasn’t terrorism (based on the information we have now). Terrorism is violence with an ideological , religious, or political motivation. You can say that the planned parenthood shooter was a terrorist, the white supremacist running down a protestor is a terrorist and the kid shooting up the black church was a terrorist. But the difference is that the vast vast majority of people are happy to denounce those ideologies: white supremacy, extremist Christian views, but the frustration when it comes to Islamic terrorism is that people on the left (I’m a liberal) refuse to denounce an obvious cancer in the Islamic religion. A cancer is unique to that specific religion. And white people/ non-Muslims cannot solve this, we need the Muslim community to come together an stop these extremists. But the amount of extremist continue to grow and the moderate Islamic stand by silent because deep down the extremists are simply following the teachings of the religion. 

    The difference between Islam and Christianity is that Islam is LITERALLY THE WORD OF GOD AND WRITTEN BY GOD (according to them). The Bible is the word of god transcribed by man. There is room for far more interpretation in Christianity than there is in Islam because the scriptures are directly from allah. This allows the moderate to justify the atrocities of the extremists because they’re simply following the Quran.
    Uh no. The Quran was written transcribed to a man as well, Muhammad.
    CretanBullFlukesJaimieT
  • Phoebes89 said:
    gguenot said:
    Frakkin T said:
    You're talking very broadly about the problems with an entire religion. What I am saying is that if you say American Muslims need to condemn Muslim terrorists, you also need to say that white americans need to condemn white terrorists or explain to me why they don't. 
    It took me a while to accept it, but the amount of white terrorism is miniscule in comparison to Islamic terrorism if you apply the true definition of the term terrorism. The vegas shooting wasn’t terrorism. It was a massacre, an act of horrific violence, and the actions of a deranged individual, but it wasn’t terrorism (based on the information we have now). Terrorism is violence with an ideological , religious, or political motivation. You can say that the planned parenthood shooter was a terrorist, the white supremacist running down a protestor is a terrorist and the kid shooting up the black church was a terrorist. But the difference is that the vast vast majority of people are happy to denounce those ideologies: white supremacy, extremist Christian views, but the frustration when it comes to Islamic terrorism is that people on the left (I’m a liberal) refuse to denounce an obvious cancer in the Islamic religion. A cancer is unique to that specific religion. And white people/ non-Muslims cannot solve this, we need the Muslim community to come together an stop these extremists. But the amount of extremist continue to grow and the moderate Islamic stand by silent because deep down the extremists are simply following the teachings of the religion. 

    The difference between Islam and Christianity is that Islam is LITERALLY THE WORD OF GOD AND WRITTEN BY GOD (according to them). The Bible is the word of god transcribed by man. There is room for far more interpretation in Christianity than there is in Islam because the scriptures are directly from allah. This allows the moderate to justify the atrocities of the extremists because they’re simply following the Quran.
    Uh no. The Quran was written transcribed to a man as well, Muhammad.
    They believe the entirety of the Quran was spoken to Muhammad by an angel from God, which is unique to Abrahamic religions. 
  • gguenot said:
    Phoebes89 said:
    gguenot said:
    Frakkin T said:
    You're talking very broadly about the problems with an entire religion. What I am saying is that if you say American Muslims need to condemn Muslim terrorists, you also need to say that white americans need to condemn white terrorists or explain to me why they don't. 
    It took me a while to accept it, but the amount of white terrorism is miniscule in comparison to Islamic terrorism if you apply the true definition of the term terrorism. The vegas shooting wasn’t terrorism. It was a massacre, an act of horrific violence, and the actions of a deranged individual, but it wasn’t terrorism (based on the information we have now). Terrorism is violence with an ideological , religious, or political motivation. You can say that the planned parenthood shooter was a terrorist, the white supremacist running down a protestor is a terrorist and the kid shooting up the black church was a terrorist. But the difference is that the vast vast majority of people are happy to denounce those ideologies: white supremacy, extremist Christian views, but the frustration when it comes to Islamic terrorism is that people on the left (I’m a liberal) refuse to denounce an obvious cancer in the Islamic religion. A cancer is unique to that specific religion. And white people/ non-Muslims cannot solve this, we need the Muslim community to come together an stop these extremists. But the amount of extremist continue to grow and the moderate Islamic stand by silent because deep down the extremists are simply following the teachings of the religion. 

    The difference between Islam and Christianity is that Islam is LITERALLY THE WORD OF GOD AND WRITTEN BY GOD (according to them). The Bible is the word of god transcribed by man. There is room for far more interpretation in Christianity than there is in Islam because the scriptures are directly from allah. This allows the moderate to justify the atrocities of the extremists because they’re simply following the Quran.
    Uh no. The Quran was written transcribed to a man as well, Muhammad.
    They believe the entirety of the Quran was spoken to Muhammad by an angel from God, which is unique to Abrahamic religions. 
    Christians believe that the authors of the bible were divinely inspired. 
    FlukesJaimieT
  • But the infallibility of the Quran is considered much greater.  Scholars interested in routine historical analysis and dissection of the text have to use pseudonymys because they're in danger from the religious.

    "Luxenberg--a pseudonym--is one of a small but growing group of scholars, most of them working in non-Muslim countries, studying the language and history of the Qur'an. When his new book is published this fall, it's likely to be the most far-reaching scholarly commentary on the Qur'an's early genesis, taking this infant discipline far into uncharted--and highly controversial--territory. That's because Islamic orthodoxy considers the holy book to be the verbatim revelation of Allah, speaking to his prophet, Muhammad, through the Angel Gabriel, in Arabic. Therefore, critical study of God's undiluted word has been off-limits in much of the Islamic world. (For the same reason, translations of the Qur'an are never considered authentic.) Islamic scholars who have dared ignore this taboo have often found themselves labeled heretics and targeted with death threats and violence. Luxenberg, a professor of Semitic languages at one of Germany's leading universities, has chosen to remain anonymous because he fears a fatwa by enraged Islamic extremists."

    http://www.newsweek.com/challenging-quran-139447
    Brawn
  • edited November 2017
    Vanslewel said:
    Thomas said:

    You just named a couple thousand out of billions.  There are some that are doing good stuff, but the overwhelming majority are not doing anything.  I already provided examples of Muslim neighborhoods refusing to call police when they know one of their neighbors is about to conduct a terrorist act.  They didn't speak up when the Charlie Hebdo shooters were sleeping next door.  That happens regularly.  Do you think that is not a problem?  
    The majority of non-Muslims aren't doing anything to combat terrorism either, because most people, regardless of faith or political ideology, aren't really in a position to do anything. We live our lives and put our trust in the intelligence services, military, and law enforcement to combat terrorism and other threats to our society. I haven't done anything in the past year to help combat terrorism, and most people I know haven't either. I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you haven't either. 

    You assert that Muslim neighbors refused to call police on the Charlie Hebdo shooters. Is there a reputable news source you're getting your information from? 

    There are 3.3 million Muslims in the United States. That's roughly the population of Connecticut. A handful have committed acts of violence. From a logical perspective, it simply doesn't make sense to condemn millions of individuals for the crimes of a few. 

    Correction, it was the Paris attack last year, not the Charlie Hebdo shooting.  But here is a link.  There are a lot more examples similar to this you can find.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/19/captured-paris-attacks-suspect-abdeslam-hid-in-belgiums-molenbeek.html

    Again, you are deflecting.  When I say Muslims aren't doing enough to condone their own issues, you automatically respond with "well non-Muslims aren't either" as if that is a valid response.  As I posted earlier, in order to criticize Republicans do I also need to criticize Democrats too?  No.

    Also, since you ignored what I have written about 10 times, I am not condoning Muslims.  I am simply stating that their religion has a lot of issues and they need to step up to combat them.
    The article mentions that the suspect's associates and friends helped to conceal him. It does not say that neighbors knew he was in hiding there. 

    I'm not trying to deflect. I'm just pointing out that your assertion that the majority of Muslims aren't doing anything Is holding them to an unfair standard. What, pray tell, is a doctor, student, or insurance salesman living in suburban Virginia supposed to do when they don't have any specific information about someone who's been radicalized? And why should my Muslim neighbor be condemned for doing nothing when I'm not doing anything either? 

    My only quibbles with you are that 1) blanket assertions that Muslims aren't doing enough to combat terrorism are not accurate (see details about the current fight against ISIS) and that 2) that terrorists belong to a few sub-sects of a huge religion that has over a billion followers, so blaming a religion makes no logical sense.



    Continue to apply pressure to help reform their religious practice from the inside?  Nobody's going to clean up regressive Islam but Muslims.

    gguenot said:
    Vanslewel said:
    Thomas said:



    https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2016/04/15/world/europe/poll-british-muslims.amp.html

    You do bring up a good point about what random suburbia dwelling Muslims are meant to do about the extremists in their religion— I don’t really have an answer for that. The problem I see is the data in the article.


    gguenot said:
    Vanslewel said:

    You assert that Muslim neighbors refused to call police on the Charlie Hebdo shooters. Is there a reputable news source you're getting your information from? 

    There are 3.3 million Muslims in the United States. That's roughly the population of Connecticut. A handful have committed acts of violence. From a logical perspective, it simply doesn't make sense to condemn millions of individuals for the crimes of a few. 
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2016/04/15/world/europe/poll-british-muslims.amp.html

    I have seen many people bring up polls and say that the way to solve extremist Islam is by Muslims. I always wonder what people are expected to do? When I lived in Saudi the mosques would have talks about Muslim extremism and people were encouraged to anonymously share if they had been in contact with anyone who had extremist views. September 11th actually happened when I was quite young and in Islamic school. We actually ended our lessons early that day to watch the news and everyone was upset and crying. We had a really powerful sermon about how the terrorists were evil and that this was not Islam. We actually were bussed home early that day because people picketed outside our school calling us terrorists and throwing rocks, I was 12 at the time.

    I am genuinely asking what else people are expecting Muslims to do? 
    DeeCretanBullDaveyMacJaimieT
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • But the infallibility of the Quran is considered much greater.  Scholars interested in routine historical analysis and dissection of the text have to use pseudonymys because they're in danger from the religious.

    "Luxenberg--a pseudonym--is one of a small but growing group of scholars, most of them working in non-Muslim countries, studying the language and history of the Qur'an. When his new book is published this fall, it's likely to be the most far-reaching scholarly commentary on the Qur'an's early genesis, taking this infant discipline far into uncharted--and highly controversial--territory. That's because Islamic orthodoxy considers the holy book to be the verbatim revelation of Allah, speaking to his prophet, Muhammad, through the Angel Gabriel, in Arabic. Therefore, critical study of God's undiluted word has been off-limits in much of the Islamic world. (For the same reason, translations of the Qur'an are never considered authentic.) Islamic scholars who have dared ignore this taboo have often found themselves labeled heretics and targeted with death threats and violence. Luxenberg, a professor of Semitic languages at one of Germany's leading universities, has chosen to remain anonymous because he fears a fatwa by enraged Islamic extremists."

    http://www.newsweek.com/challenging-quran-139447
    Christianity went through much of the same, it just happened further back in history.  On of the biggest events in history was caused by/a reaction to the bible being translated. 


  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited November 2017
    I'm not advocating for individual Muslims to rise up and personally cleanse the fanatics in their midsts in some sort of vigilance committee.  But institutionally, there is a need for Muslim religious groups to gather power and attempt to reform their own religion.  

    I agree with this Indonesian Islamic Scholar: 

    In Interview, Top Indonesian Muslim Scholar Says Stop Pretending That Orthodox Islam and Violence Aren't Linked
    Brawn
  • I agree this is a tough subject and it’s easy to sound like all Muslims are being generalized, but my concern is the “what can we do about it?” response. As a member of the left, if we continue to be unable to discuss this issues we’re facing then those who are truely prejudiced will end up having their way. Take Majid Nawaz— he’s literally a former extremist now counter extremist and he doesn’t have a platform to speak on liberal media sites. He is advocating the tenants of liberalism: gay rights, women’s rights, etc but calling for a reform of the religion and the only station that will have him is Fox News. Fox News then takes his message and uses it to fuel the true bigotry against Muslims by reinforcing stereotypes and stoking fears. To paraphrase Sam Harris, if the left can’t even talk about the issues within the religion, how can it ever begin to be reformed to grant women and gays equal rights? If we continue to excuse modern terror attacks by pointing to other religions’ faults then the bigots will win with their Muslim bans, registries, and persecution. The only thing keeping that from happening right now is the left and moderates defense of Muslims— which they should be defended. But how many more attack will need to happen before the “solutions” of the bigots start sounding reasonable? That’s all I have to say on the matter. I have a couple Muslim friends that I’ve had for a long time. One doesn’t agree with me like others here and the other does— it’s all about keeping communication channels and minds open.
    BrawnThomas
  • The answer - or a big part of the answer - goes back to what I was saying yesterday.  Islam has been around for over a thousand years, America has been around for over 200 years but there's only been a problem in more recent times.  Islam didn't change, the Koran didn't change.  Fundamentalist Muslims have been around for over a century without causing any problems for us.  If people want to 'fix' Islam, great - I'm on board, how can I help?  But we need to realize that no amount of 'fixing' is going to eliminate fundamentalism and something like 9/11 only took a small handful of people to pull off.

    Whatever effort we put into 'fixing' Islam - supporting moderates, funding de-radicalization programs, whatever helps - we should be an equal effort into examining our own role in the situation we find ourselves in.
    Flukes
  • The US was much less involved in the Middle East on September, 10th, 2001.  Doesn't look like it did much good.  


    Whatever effort we put into 'fixing' Islam - supporting moderates, funding de-radicalization programs, whatever helps - we should be an equal effort into examining our own role in the situation we find ourselves in.





    CretanBullBrawn
This discussion has been closed.