205 - "Akane No Mai"

A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
Directed by: Craig Zobel
Written by: Dan Dietz
KingKobra
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Comments

  • Super excited for this episode. 
    gguenotphoenyx1023Luke
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    If Westworld was an anime, this is the episode where it's summer and everyone's hot so they go to someone's private island to enjoy the beach.
    Flukes
  • calebthrowercalebthrower South Carolina
    Wow. Shogun World is super rad
    Blusister
  • I really wish we could just stay in ShogunWorld :/ Maeve with control via the “net” (which is the reason they brought this up the previous episode) is like god mode. Happy that we get more of this world and they didn’t leave right away. 
    BlusisterrkcrawfMelonusk
  • KingKobra said:
    I really wish we could just stay in ShogunWorld :/ Maeve with control via the “net” (which is the reason they brought this up the previous episode) is like god mode. Happy that we get more of this world and they didn’t leave right away. 
    God mode would be stupid, except it won’t work on humans. 

    Kinda like when I try to cast mana storm at work. 
    MurderbearNoobieDooz
  • edited May 2018
    gjulleen said:
    KingKobra said:
    I really wish we could just stay in ShogunWorld :/ Maeve with control via the “net” (which is the reason they brought this up the previous episode) is like god mode. Happy that we get more of this world and they didn’t leave right away. 
    God mode would be stupid, except it won’t work on humans. 

    Kinda like when I try to cast mana storm at work. 
    Doesn’t need to work on humans when you have so many pawns at your disposal. The reason I say “god mode” is the show does take bits from video games and insert them into this world.  Even in god mode you can be limited by world constraints ;) 

    you failing means you 1) need to level up 2) use the right language or possibly 3) have had your privlidges revoked by a higher level user. 
    gjulleen
  • Can't believe I didn't pick up on the Wu Tang.

    MurderbearMrXrkcrawfMelonusk
  • Another tidbit this was the last episode that reviewers had a screener for. From here on out we should all be on the same playing field. 

    Hats off for rhe music, using the same music to tie into what Lee said (it was a “rush” job so lots of things were reused). The style of music will also hint to which world we are in. 
  • Can someone clarify the potential black mirror parallel mentioned at the end of the instant chat? 
  • So did Dolores ball Teddy, only to make him a virgin again?
    MurderbearNoobieDooz
  • MrXMrX CO
    edited May 2018
    Can't believe I didn't pick up on the Wu Tang.


    Using C.R.E.A.M. in Shogun World is the best thing Westworld has ever done. I nearly jumped out of my seat when I heard those first notes.

    Now I want a RZA cameo!


    KingKobrarkcrawfDarmock&Jalad@Tenagra
  • edited May 2018
    Quick note on the title: Akane No Mai means Akane's dance. Also I think the word that got @A_Ron_Hubbard confused was Ronin, basically a Samurai without a master. Ninja/Shinobi is a different class of people who are mercenaries or assassins. They are for hire and do not have allegiance to a lord.
    KingKobramajjam0770GiovanniGan
  • Anyone think that 1/3 of the hosts being "new" could be referencing the story of Lucifer rebelling from God in Heaven and taking 1/3 of the Angel's with him to Earth? They are disconnected from Delos control but are still serving someone else? Dolores?
    majjam0770lengmoMurderbear
  • edited May 2018
    MrX said:
    Can't believe I didn't pick up on the Wu Tang.


    Using C.R.E.A.M. in Shogun World is the best thing Westworld has ever done. I nearly jumped out of my seat when I heard those first notes.

    Now I want a RZA cameo!




    I was really hoping they would cover WuTang at the start of the episode.  Especially since they quote "Shogun's Assassin" in a lot of their work.  "Liquid Sword" or "4th Chamber" would probably have been more appropriate covers, but less people would have made the connection, so "CREAM: it is.:










    Anyway, I was a little nervous (and still am somewhat) that this season would take a "disparate world's colliding > conflict between civilizations/parks > let's unite to fight a common enemy (humans)" path, when the show doesn't really need to show us alternate versions of the same characters that we are already familiar with.  The show is at its best, in my opinion, when it is meditating on the meaning of consciousness, free will, and asking the viewer to ask uncomfortable questions about whether we as humans actually have free will, or whether we are just a collection of reactions based on our own prime directives, etc similar to the hosts. When the show strays from these more philosophical questions for extravagant world-building, I lose interest....but then I hear a WuTang cover and I sort of just decide to roll with it instead.  I'm not complaining, but I do hope that this alliance across parks/robot civilizations is swift and that we don't spend the entire season seeing these cross-cultural clashes play out at the expense of the larger, united robot rebellion at play.
    JaimieTMrXDarmock&Jalad@TenagraMelonusk
  • edited May 2018
    This episode was the epitome of my issues with this show as a whole; very expensive and lavish-looking, well crafted, but with absolutely no character development or reason to care for them. Who are these new characters and why do I care about them? One note characters everywhere (Hector, Armistace, everyone in Shogun, who also have a vanilla copy from Westworld). Very hollow and vapid action scenes with no stakes to the audience. And, you could see that final Shogun battle scene's resolution from a mile away. Sigh, after last week's awesome Delos scenes, this one was a step back for me.
    JaimieTmajjam0770NoobieDooz
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    I want to know how the “cavalry” lose to dudes with swords and maybe arrows. I’ve been holding my suspension of disbelief on the whole security thing but they just seem to keep making it more and more ridiculous. 
    majjam0770ghm3
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited May 2018
    Several times this episode indulged in a pet peeve of mine...when a scene change happens, and even a costume change, and characters have suspended discussion for no good reason. Scene changes and costume changes are "fun" though, and this episode was going for fun, I think. I didn't have much fun, but the episode wasn't offensive or anything. Jim kind of broke it when he pointed out Sakura is technically not dead, but the episode doesn't seem meant to be so closely examined. Which is interesting...

    Two plots, one that rewards you when you really think about it, notice its inconsistencies and anomalies, and the other that breaks if you look at it too closely. 

    If all of this had happened in Westworld, I'd be annoyed like after episode 3. The power of the scene change.
    majjam0770
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Hatorian said:
    I want to know how the “cavalry” lose to dudes with swords and maybe arrows. I’ve been holding my suspension of disbelief on the whole security thing but they just seem to keep making it more and more ridiculous. 
    I can only think that maybe the security team rolled in at night and they did them like they did Maeves group in a sneak attack with ropes seemingly coming out of no where, or in a hail of hundreds of arrows. Although you would think that security would be aware of a sneak attack in Shogun world, especially after the uprising.

    I had the same question though. I wish someone would just ask Nolan and Joy about it, just so that we can see if it's a mystery we're meant to be questioning or if they're just hand waving over it, or if they can provide valid exanations. I would rather not have a bunch of disppointed fans who are expecting clarity by the end of the season on this particular element if it's not something that will be addressed.
    majjam0770Hatorian
  • This episode was the epitome of my issues with this show as a whole; very expensive and lavish-looking, well crafted, but with absolutely no character development or reason to care for them. Who are these new characters and why do I care about them? One note characters everywhere (Hector, Armistace, everyone in Shogun, who also have a vanilla copy from Westworld). Very hollow and vapid action scenes with no stakes to the audience. And, you could see that final Shogun battle scene's resolution from a mile away. Sigh, after last week's awesome Delos scenes, this one was a step back for me.


    I don't think the point was that we are really suppose to care about the new characters in Shogun world.  I just laughed at how the guy admitted to being lazy with his story writing and just recreated the same story but putting it in a different setting/background.

    Also, you mentioned seeing the resolution to the Shogun battle a mile a way.  I think it was also pretty easy to tell that Dolores was going to do something to betray/double cross Teddy (or at least right when they started to have sex I said out loud that she was either going to leave him behind or kill him or doing something to wrong him).

    JaimieTmajjam0770ghm3
  • LukeLuke Central Illinois
    edited May 2018
    I almost wonder if the 10 episode prestige drama format of the show is working against it.  I loved Shogun World and am nostalgic for a time in TV where shows could just do these one episode silo character arcs like the later Star Trek did.  And if they had 26 episodes instead of 10 these set piece episodes would be easier to fit into a season.  

    IMO they have one too many simultaneous plotlines going on.  Last seasons had two and they doubled that this season and I just don't feel like it is as tight of a story. 

    It did not surprise me last episode when A Ron said they had inside info that editing had been done to some of this in post production even after it was all put together.  

    This feels a bit disjointed, like they screened it, realized some of the plots weren't working and went back and rearranged everything.  

    Overall I'm still enjoying Mauve's arc with the humans as comic relief and Williams arc.  The future Bernard storyline has lost me a bit because like others have said I find the ineptitude of Delos security/corporate to be stretching believability to the maximum.  I also just don't like anything they are doing with Delores.  
    JaimieT
  • This episode was the epitome of my issues with this show as a whole; very expensive and lavish-looking, well crafted, but with absolutely no character development or reason to care for them. Who are these new characters and why do I care about them? One note characters everywhere (Hector, Armistace, everyone in Shogun, who also have a vanilla copy from Westworld). Very hollow and vapid action scenes with no stakes to the audience. And, you could see that final Shogun battle scene's resolution from a mile away. Sigh, after last week's awesome Delos scenes, this one was a step back for me.


    I don't think the point was that we are really suppose to care about the new characters in Shogun world.  I just laughed at how the guy admitted to being lazy with his story writing and just recreated the same story but putting it in a different setting/background.

    Also, you mentioned seeing the resolution to the Shogun battle a mile a way.  I think it was also pretty easy to tell that Dolores was going to do something to betray/double cross Teddy (or at least right when they started to have sex I said out loud that she was either going to leave him behind or kill him or doing something to wrong him).

    I would sort of agree with his take. The world itself was created without care (admitted by Sizemore outright). It goes back to season 1 when he showcased his new narrative and Ford liked the shoes only. We are supposed to care/like their doppelgängers, but at the same time we hardly know them since we only have been introduced to them in one episode. We know Teddy eventually ends up dead, so it’s just a matter of when Dolores “betrays” Teddy, not “if”. We also saw it in the previous episode when Dolores looked at him with the Wyatt eyes seeing him release the prisoners. 

    For me an interesting piece of information is that most of the hosts were “empty”. This may be saying that the 1/3 were chosen to move on to the next round. They used “doubles” which had no data loaded into them as a distraction so that it gives thsoe that are loaded time to escape. 
    JaimieTmajjam0770
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited May 2018
    This episode was the epitome of my issues with this show as a whole; very expensive and lavish-looking, well crafted, but with absolutely no character development or reason to care for them. Who are these new characters and why do I care about them? One note characters everywhere (Hector, Armistace, everyone in Shogun, who also have a vanilla copy from Westworld). Very hollow and vapid action scenes with no stakes to the audience. And, you could see that final Shogun battle scene's resolution from a mile away. Sigh, after last week's awesome Delos scenes, this one was a step back for me.


    I don't think the point was that we are really suppose to care about the new characters in Shogun world.  I just laughed at how the guy admitted to being lazy with his story writing and just recreated the same story but putting it in a different setting/background.

    Also, you mentioned seeing the resolution to the Shogun battle a mile a way.  I think it was also pretty easy to tell that Dolores was going to do something to betray/double cross Teddy (or at least right when they started to have sex I said out loud that she was either going to leave him behind or kill him or doing something to wrong him).


    Yes, I think that was the show telling us they're aware they're using archetypes not characters. Time travel stories often have those winking lines too.

    Also, for those who say the ending was obvious, Lee also told us the ending... he said Maeve would dominate the army.
    majjam0770Murderbear
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    edited May 2018
    All right, here's my 'morning after' immediate reactions...

    What I thought was cool:

    Rehashing the scene of Hector & his gang, but now in Shogun World...
    so re-using Paint it Black but now with a Japanese theme.  Also the archery in that scene.  Loved the archery. 

    Wild West Mamasan & Japanese Mamasan with the same back story / character.  Also Clementine breaking code and getting #woke while watching the Asian version of herself say her lines.    

    Akane when she had fresh blood on her face against the white geisha make up.

    Akane stabbing that guy's eye and sawing that dude's head off!

    Shogun World's whole set & costume....Amaze.

    Ninja fight scene was cool.  Ninja with the Shredder claw was cool.

    Teddy and Delores FINALLY hook up.  And then after she got hers, she re-programs him. Cold-blooded.
    Someone on reddit captured the before/after on his personality chart. Wow. She turned him into a monster.

    Maeve going all Neo & able to mind control hosts was UNGH! so awesome.

    Also funniest thing I've seen on Bald Move in a while - On the Instant Talk video, Jim's gutteral reaction to A.Ron when he says "We got to see some righteous shots of James Marsden's ass"  lmaooooooo 


    Strong back to back episodes, these past 2 episodes.  I'm officially pumped up for this season now.  
    JaimieTmajjam0770KingKobragguenot
  • cdrive said:
    Also Clementine breaking code and getting #woke while watching the Asian version of herself say her lines.    


    I loved this scene too (but it was just new blonde Clem she was watching, not Asian Clem). Zombie Clem has been a scene stealer even with minimal dialogue this season.

    I really like Hiroyuki Sanada (especially when he's in samurai mode), so I was really excited to see him on the show, even if only for a couple of eps.
    KingKobracdrive
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited May 2018
    Can someone clarify the potential black mirror parallel mentioned at the end of the instant chat? 

    I didn't hear the whole thing, but I'm fairly certain what it was about because I had a thought earlier this week that fits their reactions, and even Jim said, "Yeah, Dolores is doing that with Wyatt," which is how I was approaching it.

    So if you'll forgive me for (1) guessing and in the process (2) sharing an observation I'd had:

    I believe they're talking about the horror of having your conscious mind overruled by code, so that you are forced to do something you don't want to do. Or maybe you might want to do it, but the point is you don't get a say in your own bodily autonomy. Your own mental autonomy. A robot like Dolores being over-programmed with Wyatt's personality could be a horrific experience for her. In fact a human has never experienced such a violation as this. An example that comes to mind, outside of Black Mirror, is the Sunken Place from Get Out

    So our poor Dolores, who was often the victim of rape, is now freshly-awakened only to be the possible victim of mind-rape.

    It's disturbing.

    And I know Black Mirror touched on this in the first episode of season 4, the Star Trek one, but I think they touched on it later too in the finale. The woman stuck in the teddy bear.
    KingKobra
  • Hatorian said:
    I want to know how the “cavalry” lose to dudes with swords and maybe arrows. I’ve been holding my suspension of disbelief on the whole security thing but they just seem to keep making it more and more ridiculous. 
    Witness Dolores taking shots like she was 50 Cent last episode. They keep coming and take high damage (this is a tougher park). They have some armor. They know the land...Dune buggy won't work there. Depending on the numbers and tactics being employed by the Delos force, I could buy it. Shit, they might have snuck on them at night...They were on top of Maeve in 2 seconds.
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    Part of me thinks it's totally believable that a group of badass samurais could take out a group of (from what we've been shown so far, especially at Fort Forlorn Hope) inept Delos security guards. Another part of me thinks that the Delos Security Force would have magic future iPads that would show the location of these hosts and it would be extremely hard for them to spring a trap on them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    gguenotMelonusk
  • Hatorian said:
    I want to know how the “cavalry” lose to dudes with swords and maybe arrows. I’ve been holding my suspension of disbelief on the whole security thing but they just seem to keep making it more and more ridiculous. 
    According the Lee, there are “hundreds” of warriors in ShogunWorld. As it’s been said, if only some of them are “changed” that would most likely be enough. The hosts in that world knew the land and could use that along with surprise to better the few cavalry that were sent. We saw the same thing with the attack on the compound. The cavalry while having superior weapons had weaker ground and were more vulnerable. It’s not like they have hundreds of cavalry, it’s more like 10-20 and that is much more manageable. I know Lee is a dolt (a smart dolt), but I would think he would use some of the Art of War in ShogunWorld too ;) 
    Murderbear
  • On the subject of Dolores / Maeve not taking over an army, I think this is more a moral choice by the protagonists. Both have been all about giving hosts a choice and not repeating the same level of "slavery" that was visited upon them. Hector, Armistice, Teddy (up until now) were all given a choice. Even the Confederados that Dolores sided with were given a choice. There are certainly some inconsistencies/wavering in Dolores' moral code, but I do think she has one. Maeve definitely has one. But I think it's a better answer on why they just don't "Night King" the whole Westworld population.

    If you're not buying that, I do believe that it's more efficient for Maeve to issue one kill command to a host and have it kill itself/another host than it is to reprogram a host to obey her and only her. Rebus (Ogg's character) is a bit different bc they change his sliders to protect guests, etc. They didn't reprogram him to take commands from a specific host, so I don't think that comparison is fitting. 
  • I really got a kick out of the mirrored bandit/ vault stealing scene in Shogun World and Lee's ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (thanks Murderbear for making it easy) moment about his lazy writing. 

    One thing that was in my head while watching this episode is that I bet a veteran visitor to these parks could totally lose one's self in Shogun World due to how much more developed it is vs Sweetwater. I feel like 10 days in WW would get a little old, but 10 days in SW wouldnt at all. 
    Murderbear
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