Is Westworld's structure necessary
Posting this from a Twitter thread between Mark Harris and Alan Sepinwall. I found the discussion interesting, as I've had the same thoughts.
Harris
Sepinwall
Harris
Sepinwall
I'm not sure I'm with Sepinwall here, but I do feel like it's not serving much of a purpose. Maeve's story is the most engaging to me partly because of Thandie Newton's performance and that the character has a sense of humor, but also because I can take it all in as it comes without having to remember too much.
And if you play the Jeffrey Wright parts in order, I don't see how it would suffer. It's really started to feel like the puzzle is distracting from the story.
Harris
I would be willing to pay a small monthly premium to HBO to have my episodes of Westworld recut in chronological order.
Honestly I think it'd be a great S3 creative self-challenge for the Westworld team to adhere to strict chronological order.
To make the show's interest reside entirely in what happens, not in strategically parceling out what happens. But I know plenty of people love it as is.
Obviously I don't believe structural gamesmanship or calculated withholding is gimmickry or "cheating." My question is more about at what point the work of trying to figure out what happened stops being a pleasurable means to an end, and threatens to become the entire/only point.
Sepinwall
But how much if interest is left once you do that? The Maeve Show, and...?
Harris
Well, that's a good question. I like the show a lot, but it's beginning to feel like its primary subject is its own structure.
Sepinwall
Yup. And where that has great emotional weight for something like Memento, there's not enough in this case. The show's best when it's most straightforward, which at this point is just Maeve's corner of it.
They have JEFFREY WRIGHT, and they're just using him in service of timeline shenanigans.
And if you play the Jeffrey Wright parts in order, I don't see how it would suffer. It's really started to feel like the puzzle is distracting from the story.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
If anyone wants Jonathan Nolan's musing the rise of AI and the impact on our society, told in a more traditional narrative structure, I highly recommend Person of Interest. It actually was largely a procedural crime show for much of the first 2 seasons (and later seasons to some degree - which makes it a little harder to get into in this age of serialized prestige tv - but once it gets rolling it's quite good, one of my favorite sci-fi shows of the last 10 years.
It's looking more and more like we're going to end the season where we started with the flood, which is a storytelling technique that I rarely see done successfully (I hated this in the Walking Dead). I'm sure we have some more twists coming our way, but I can't help but think that it will be frustrating if we end the season with the storylines coalescing around were we picked up in episode one. Especially given the lengthy breaks the show takes between seasons.
We discussed it a bit in the opening of this week's Westworld podcast and it's good to see that I'm not alone in this feeling.
I am far from giving up the show though. The structure does create the same kind of disorientation some of the characters must be going through so there is some value in that. And then you get things like that image of James Delos being created again and again and how just horrible all of the implications of that was and it is hard to imagine a show that would be able to portray that any better, and the structure contributes to that. But I think they could tone the timeline jumps and who-is-a-robot guess-work down and the show might be better for it.
actually.. that sounds dope AF
A better GOT equivalent is Bran seeing the person sitting on the throne, but suddenly it's 3 thrones, and before he can see who the 3rd person is, someone kills Bran and all of the throne-sitters and he wakes up.
Or some such bullshit with the appearance of substance.
Everything else going on is fairly straight forward. I’m just not sure how I feel about the introduction of this cradle thing though. Throwing The Matrix concept into an already conceptually convoluted show seems like a bit much.
No that's when you get that father/son arc payoff of them living on opposite ends of an empty planet.
I think Maeve is not just the most straightforward story, but also far and away the best character. I could tolerate the haziness in the plot if any of the affected characters were livelier and more relatable. Maeve was going through a lot of this timeline jerkiness last season and it didn’t bother me at all. It could be the show was giving us our bearings to a greater extent, but I’m saying that in hindsight.
Not only is Maeve more fun, but she also has a much better supporting cast of characters. Hector, Lee, Armistice, the techs, and now the Shogun peeps. It’s an embarrassment of riches. Dolores meanwhile has Teddy. Clementine has a certain ghostly charm about her. I kind of like the other blonde host, but she mostly sneers and shoots things. Dolores could desperately use a Lee.
Sad thing is I love Jeffrey Wright and I do agree with Sepinwall he’s wasted in this perpetually confused state. (At least he’s got Elsie who’s one of the funnier, more relatable characters.) This could all pay off in a plot sense, but I’m not sure it makes up for several episodes of me scrunching my nose trying to understand what I’m watching.
I think I just may not be the target podcast listener. Thank goodness I haven't gone down the reddit rabbit hole (I'm in my 50's - my teenagers are all over it). I have initially enjoyed your (and a couple other) podcasts to help me verify my thoughts or fill in gaps I may have missed. I guess I'm glad I don't have your job because I am still really enjoying WW.
BTW, I am not hating on you - I really do think you guys are incredibly smart, witty, and thoughtful. I just think this new form of deep diving may be too much for me - I'm glad I wasn't aware of it during Breaking Bad or Lost.
I know that this is your job so keep up the good work, but I think your world wasn't meant for me.
Jim H
For those lost there is this timeline:
http://www.thisisinsider.com/westworld-timeline-spoilers-2018-4
I enjoy the show but for a normal television watcher this show has to be unwatchable with all the different timelines.
All the Strand stuff would fit into one episode so far. Maybe they just felt it wouldn't flow very well since they're really just 3-5 minute segments. Seems like they could figure that out though.
Or there's some reveal coming in the Strand timeline that would have been ruined by seeing something that came before it (but that we still haven't seen).
Even if the second is true I still don't like it because I've felt lost and/or uninterested in those pieces that aren't put together yet. It's like saying you need to hear all a bands albums or see them live before you appreciate them. At some point I need to find a hook and become engaged in the journey, and outside of Maeve that hasn't been there this season.
Don't get me wrong, I am still a fan, I am going to watch it as long as I find it enjoyable. And this episode, though I asked myself WTF a lot, had many strong moments as threads came together. But I am just along for the ride now. No more intense theorizing or trying to solve the puzzle box. I will see what happens at the end and keep expectations reasonable.
One final tin foil prediction - this has all been a fantasy a la Total Recall in Ashley Stubbs' mind. He will end up saving the world, and getting the girl (Elsie) and all that stuff. Then wake up from his visit to the cradle.
1. You know he's going to die at that point.
2. Why would any elite trained military professional who before then was moving swiftly and quietly down the hall just start screaming giving away his exact position. Why are they all bunched up and when they see bodies everyone just stops and stands around like teenagers who just found a dead body in the woods.
Just my.02