207- Les Écorchés

gguenotgguenot CA
edited June 2018 in Westworld
Written By: Jordan Goldberg & Ron Fitzgerald
Directed By: Nicole Kassell

 only reason I’m starting this is because I saw cool semi-spoiler that I assume is for this episode and didn’t know where to post it. If you want to see a mild spoiler for this episode, check out Louise Herthum’s (Peter Abernathy) twitter banner photo.  :o 
Michelle
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Comments

  • MichelleMichelle California
    I ran the title through Babylon's translator, and it translated to "The Skinned".  :astonished:
    But, we'll see how it translates to the actual episode.  Maybe it won't be quite so literal.
    gguenot
  • MichelleMichelle California
    @gguenot, did you watch the video he posted that shows scenes from the remainder of this season?  *So good*!
  • Michelle said:
    @gguenot, did you watch the video he posted that shows scenes from the remainder of this season?  *So good*!
    Lol I just did and saw that image from the actors twitter was from that  :( so much for my cool spoiler find. This rest of the season looks intense!
    Michelle
  • MichelleMichelle California
    You never know, it very well could be from tonight's!  :)
  • edited June 2018
    Another great episode. I liked that we are seeing more of Sir Anthony Hopkins and that we seem to have caught up in the timelines. I’m surprised that we didn’t see speculation that the Ghost Nation was protecting/living in the valley beyond. Dolores leaving Maeve and giving her a “choice” seemed to be a new leaf turned. Sad that we lost Clem and Angela “in service”. 
    NervousRhinoMichelleMurderbearDnowelshbrowniefivecdrive
  • Delos security is really starting to make stormtroopers look competent. 
    Murderbearken haleDoctor_Nick
  • Also I almost laughed out loud at the part where Maeve was screaming as her daughter was taken away. Guessing that wasn't the intended reaction. 

    ken hale
  • KingKobra said:
     Sad that we lost Clem and Angela “in service”. 
    Yeah that really bummed me out. That crew was my favorite side story. 

    I really liked the MIB showdown though. That guy never gives up. 
    KingKobra
  • Was it just me or or did this episode highlight just how bad the writing actually is without the eloquence of Anthony Hopkins' performance? This episode was pretty much an encapsulation of my enormous frustration with the whole season. There is a really good story underneath all this time trickery BS and there are great characters underneath all this super melodramatic, dorm-room philosophizing, over the top dialogue but the the show does not seem to care about that.

    Anthony Hopkins hijacking Bernard's mind to force him to murder a bunch of people would be an extreme violation of Bernard's agency and could have been incredibly tragic. But because they have spent the whole season obfuscating whether we are seeing Bernard, or Arnold, or Bernard in a simulation, or Teddy in Bernard's body, I have absolutely zero emotional investment in Jeffrey Wright's character. Which is crazy because he is one of the most amazing working actors out there right now! Ugh... this show could be soooo good if they stopped getting up their own ass so much.
    NellieMajorMalfunctionWheatfieldsDemicken haleMFG
  • Evan Rachel Wood brought the heat in this episode, too. Her intensity and intimidation when she was talking to Hale was badass, and her ability to access such realistic tears on cue (like when she was saying goodbye to her dad) is astonishing.

    On another note that I found hilariously random, Teddy's new cold-blooded killer programming somehow necessitates an overgrown Caesar haircut that's about three shades darker. It actually took me out of the scene a bit when he beat Coughlin to death with that ridiculous haircut. Instead of being in the moment, I was thinking, "Christ, they really amped up the product in Marsden's hair."

    ghm3MrXKingKobrabrowniefiveDnowelshcdrive
  • Was it just me or or did this episode highlight just how bad the writing actually is without the eloquence of Anthony Hopkins' performance? This episode was pretty much an encapsulation of my enormous frustration with the whole season. There is a really good story underneath all this time trickery BS and there are great characters underneath all this super melodramatic, dorm-room philosophizing, over the top dialogue but the the show does not seem to care about that.

    Anthony Hopkins hijacking Bernard's mind to force him to murder a bunch of people would be an extreme violation of Bernard's agency and could have been incredibly tragic. But because they have spent the whole season obfuscating whether we are seeing Bernard, or Arnold, or Bernard in a simulation, or Teddy in Bernard's body, I have absolutely zero emotional investment in Jeffrey Wright's character. Which is crazy because he is one of the most amazing working actors out there right now! Ugh... this show could be soooo good if they stopped getting up their own ass so much.
    I agree with you on the initial question. The writing is really awful in places. However, it did not mess up my interpretation of Bernard. That was already up in the air after last year's reveal, and the season opener established that he wasn't quite right. That pattern has continued for several episodes. I'm not crazy about it, but I can't say I had faith that Bernard was some sort of constant. 

    The lack of investment with Bernard (and everyone else) is a seed that the show sowed. I'm more curious about where the plot goes, and I don't necessarily care about any of the characters (not a great sign in S2). I'm sort of hoping that Lee has an arc, or maybe Elsie survives. But who else should empathize with?? 
  • The guys are such a bummer to listen to this season (they were last year too). I think I’m going to skip this podcast going forward. There are way more interesting Westworld podcasts out there who actually like the show and enjoy discussing the episodes. 
    jimhibblergguenotA_Ron_HubbardDnowelshbrowniefive
  • rkcrawf said:

    The lack of investment with Bernard (and everyone else) is a seed that the show sowed. I'm more curious about where the plot goes, and I don't necessarily care about any of the characters (not a great sign in S2). I'm sort of hoping that Lee has an arc, or maybe Elsie survives. But who else should empathize with?? 
      I agree with this to some extent but I thought in S1 Jeffrey Wright infused his Arnold portrayal with some real pathos as a grieving father. And even with his Bernard portrayal he depicted a being going through an existential crisis. 

       I defended a lot of the shenanigans in S1 because I really thought that it was all a prologue to the real story, which officially kicked off with the killing of Ford. In that “final” Anthony Hopkins monologue he says something about how this new story will be about the birth of a new people and about the decisions they will have to make along the way, and I thought that would be the real story of Westworld. And so with the shot of a gun, the creators were saying ok from this moment, this is where our characters are going to develop because this is where the real story begins. But this season just seems to be undercutting a lot of that. It really really feels like we’ve been idling 
    rkcrawf
  • Fordnardnold FTW
    MurderbearMichellelengmoNoobieDoozwampakusaraej319
  • Episode was awesome!
    MichelleDnowelsh
  • The guys are such a bummer to listen to this season (they were last year too). I think I’m going to skip this podcast going forward. There are way more interesting Westworld podcasts out there who actually like the show and enjoy discussing the episodes. 
    Yea I’m kinda with you on that. Love their coverage of so many shows, and it’s really frustrating hearing the hate on this show. 
    RyanReesemanDnowelsh
  • This was the first episode that I really liked this season. Shogun World was cool and all, but I think this episode illustrated how much better the show is with Sir Hopkins. And aside from that, I thought the Dolores plot was more interesting than it's been all season.

  • I have been enjoying this season, but really loved this episode.  I feel like everything is slowly coming together, yet I still have so many questions ... and I'm here for it!

    It was so great to see Anthony Hopkins back - he is such an amazing actor!

    I just really, really hope Maeve is ok, because she's pretty much my favorite character, and it would break my heart if anything happened to her.

    Oh!  And I'm super excited for the next episode!
    MrXDnowelsh
  • The guys are such a bummer to listen to this season (they were last year too). I think I’m going to skip this podcast going forward. There are way more interesting Westworld podcasts out there who actually like the show and enjoy discussing the episodes. 
    Not sure if you see the chat afterwards, but from initial glance the seems fairly negative there as well. I don’t agree on the negativity, but it seems the tactic to make all of the reveals early and kind of killing that mystery box is putting a lot of folks off (not only the answers, but the way it’s done). 

    ———

    I’ve seen a lot of negative talk about the Delos security, but to me everything “fits” this far. We already know that security that was at the park was unprepared and over matched for the current situation. They’d also would hesitate trying to determine who’s a host and who’s not, hosts don’t hesitate.

    Then we have the “scouting” team (which we have seen this week and last week) get beat up pretty bad. The scouting team however is on almost the same field as the “home” security. They have little intel and probably vastly underestimated just how bad things are. This scouting squad is also probably trying to not kill humans and keep as much of park “in tact”.

    We see a VERY different team (in terms of numbers and skills) come with Strand. They seem to be kicking ass and have a much better handle on what to do. They are not hesitating and all hosts are being exterminated. 
    SlayJay17
  • Man, everything to do with the security forces and their stupidity continues to make no sense to me. But everything else was pretty great.

    Bernard/Ford, MiB/Lawrence and Delores/Hale interactions were each individually some of the best scenes in the season.
    Murderbear
  • To me this season is riding a razor edge between being a great show and a show where bad, lazy writing destroys the show. <disgusted side glance towards Lost> So much garbage seems like it could be fixed if an outside eye just looked at the script and pointed out when character's actions didn't ring true.

    One of my pet peeves is writing towards plot. The show has an idea where it's going and it's characters do anything, no matter how stupid or unreal, to get there. Delos security for starters, otherwise known as future contractor for The Empire's Storm Troopers. Many characters don't seem to have any motivation anymore other than plot.

    I hope things wrap up better but this is heading towards Legion territory for me but for different reason. That show I watch but know going in that I'm only going to get 54% and still enjoy it, just knowing I'm not going to waste time trying to figure everything out. Westworld is heading towards a show I'll watch but more as a guilty pleasure than a show I really invest heart and mind into.
    Murderbearchriskalexander.klassenken hale
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    edited June 2018
    I personally don't think the fellas are being too overly negative. Because all the things they are mad about are pretty dumb. I mean, especially this week, with the guy falling for Angela's charms in the middle of this huge battle. Very, very stupid.

    I think when you have such an amazing first season, it's easier to be critical of any dumb shit that comes in the next season because you are used to them operating at such a high level. If season one had been just okay, you might not notice so much of the lazy writing and eye rolling worthy lines.

    Also, William is not a host! This is probably the worst show to stake a claim in the ground because they love messing with the audience but I feel 99.99999% sure that he is absolutely not a host.
    NervousRhinophoenyx1023CapeGabemajjam0770ken haleDoubleA_Ron
  • edited June 2018
    The guys are such a bummer to listen to this season (they were last year too). I think I’m going to skip this podcast going forward. There are way more interesting Westworld podcasts out there who actually like the show and enjoy discussing the episodes. 
    Yes, they spent 45 minutes talking about the stupid Angela scene when there were huge reveals in this episode.  Maybe they read Reddit too much and already expect the reveals.
    ghm3
  • Regarding the timeline that the guys, at least Jim, don't seem to understand, Aaron was saying that older timeline hasn't quite caught up to where the newer timeline started on the beach, because Teddy is not dead in the lake yet.  They brushed by something that could be very important.  Does the Bernard that wakes up on the beach still have Ford riding along?  
    majjam0770
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    edited June 2018
    Man, there is just no excuse for a character as bad as "Horny guard", and a scene as bad as that one him with Angela. Nothing about it made sense for those two characters, and you could have almost dispensed with that scene entirely. You just need her running at it with an explosive. Maybe you have a few guards chasing her and shooting her the whole way, but her job was to destroy the cradle and his was to destroy her and neither seemed in any hurry to do those jobs. 

    It's much better as a viewer for Delos security to be smart and get beaten than for them to be incompetent. It tells you more about the hosts' skill level, and you feel something for the guards when they die. As it is they're just redshirts. Not even that, as redshirts usually got some form of character development.

    Apart from that I enjoyed the episode. With Dolores and Bernard they explained enough that I think I again have a baseline that allows me to enjoy the rest of their story. I think they're getting Bernard closer to full control, and a lot of my frustration is seeing him struggle with the same issues and same memories for the past 8-10 episodes.

    Other random thoughts:

    I continue to think of MIB as something of a loser and a chump, and enjoyed Maeve getting to almost take him down. I don't see any reason to think he's a host yet. Seemed to me the writers were careful to land the shots in his arms, legs, shoulders. All of which is fixable. He probably should bleed out, but that's TV. I assume his daughter will find him somehow.

    I didn't understand Lawrence being immune to Maeve's Jedi tricks. Haven't really gotten the impression that he's woke and therefore able to resist. 

    They haven't touched on it much, but Maeve is very selective about who gets to choose their own path and who she takes over and essentially sends to their death. Nor have they made her very concerned about waking those characters when they "die". I'm not sure why not. I think there's something of a rationale in that if I could save my kid by taking over another person for a few minutes, I'm doing it. I'm not looking to brainwash them, as Dolores is doing with Teddy. Still, might have been nice to see Dolores or someone challenge her on that point.

    I'm surprised about the complaints about Jim and Aron criticizing the show. I feel they've been very positive about the show until maybe the last 2-3. 
    majjam0770rkcrawfken hale
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    To the extent the "seduce the guard" ever works on a show, it works in lower stakes situations. A prisoner seduces their guard who has already been making advances. Or someone comes on to a guard who is completely unsuspecting and unaware of any present danger.

    I don't think I've ever seen anyone try that kind of scene when there's a full assault underway.
    MurderbearCapeGabealexander.klassenrkcrawfGeomecken hale
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    The MiB did take a shot to the chest among those extremity shots, so that one is pretty serious.

    I think that Lawrence, or any other host that are directly carrying instructions for the "game" for the MiB via Ford are to some extent, "woke." Like young RoboFord. I don't think if Maeve found him, she'd be able to infiltrate his brain either. We also don't know if Maeve's abilities were granted by Ford or it was just some freak thing she earned.

    Also, the guys did seem a little bummed about Dolores encountering Maeve at the end and giving her free will while keeping it from Teddy. I think it was a respect thing. This was Maeve's whole journey and I guess Dolores just didn't want to force that on her if she didn't have to. I don't think she wants to do it to Teddy either but she does need him for her plan. I mean, maybe the fact that you have to force others to enact your plan is a good sign it's a bad plan...but that's a whole nother conversation.
  • edited June 2018
    For those that want a timeline this one on Reddit is updated weekly. 


    https://www.reddit.com/r/westworld/comments/8odu25/updated_timeline_of_major_events_for_2x07_les/

  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited June 2018
    After keeping up with the timeline(s) all season, I am officially lost on where we are in the timeline, or at least confused about how the lake and empty host bodies they found fits into the timeline. They seemingly caught up with Bernards adventure between day 1 of the robot revolt and the 'present day' timeline after Bernard was woke up on the beach and they found the empty hosts in the random lake (including Teddy). Yet in the present day, we see Teddy and Dolores raid the compound and leave. They didn't even mention the empty host bodies or the lake that they had found, presumably before all of this happened. 

    They certainly don't make it seem like there's anymore story between where we saw Bernard get his story to in this episode and what we see in 'present day' scenes. Hale in present day was having Bernard remember what happened only a couple of hours before when he was in the Cradle and Dolores attacked.

    What other backstory is there left to tell of the in-between days, and how does it fit into the timeline we just watched?
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL

    Also, William is not a host! This is probably the worst show to stake a claim in the ground because they love messing with the audience but I feel 99.99999% sure that he is absolutely not a host.
    I hope he's not. I will say that before this episode aired they dropped a teaser trailer Sunday morning, and it had William doing something that looked like something Maeve could force a host to do. They never showed it in the episode, which I thought was weird. And given that this clip looks like it came from the setting that they were just in during this episode, I wonder if it was a deleted scene.

    Aside from that, they will need to explain how he's taking so many shots and not dying. One thing is for sure- the writers are certainly wanting us to wonder if he's a host.
    Murderbear
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