Star Wars - General Discussion (Spoilers all)

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  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited July 2018
    Luke said:
    Not every damn film needs a cantina scene.  

    Far be it from me to be the person to say "I liked that, so I disagree with your whole point"... but good God, that TLJ cantina moment was gorgeous. I saw the DVD extras and the costumes made my jaw slack. I'm so sad they had to cut it down so much and lose all that splendor. 

    But your overall point is sound, and just because we like something doesn't mean it enhances the story.
  • LukeLuke Central Illinois
    I'm not saying it didn't look good but that was the issue with the Prequels too wasn't it?  Those films, especially for the time, were amazing to look at.  

    I'll give another example in Solo.  It actually did a really good job of giving a fairly stand alone story.  I liked the look of the mercs that were the main antagonist of the movie. 

    But then of coarse because it is Star Wars we have to shoehorn Darth Maul and a lightsaber into it.  

    And we just had to have a big CGI tentacle monster.  

    And then in a twist it turns out the mercs that were the main antagonist of the movie are really the beginnings of the rebels.  

    It makes what should be a huge expansive galaxy feel really small. 
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited July 2018
    Luke said:
    I'm not saying it didn't look good but that was the issue with the Prequels too wasn't it?  Those films, especially for the time, were amazing to look at.  

    I'll give another example in Solo.  It actually did a really good job of giving a fairly stand alone story.  I liked the look of the mercs that were the main antagonist of the movie. 

    But then of coarse because it is Star Wars we have to shoehorn Darth Maul and a lightsaber into it.  

    And we just had to have a big CGI tentacle monster.  

    And then in a twist it turns out the mercs that were the main antagonist of the movie are really the beginnings of the rebels.  

    It makes what should be a huge expansive galaxy feel really small. 

    Yes, the Darth Maul scene was unforgivable. I was mostly annoyed because can general audiences even fucking remember who Darth Maul is? Also, can I? I, who loves Star Wars? Do I even know that Darth Maul is still around? And why are you dropping this information about Darth Maul actually being alive on me in the final moments of a movie? As though I was questioning it? There's nothing satisfying about it. It's meant to be wholly unsatisfying, except for the very few people who keep up with the comics or books, I don't know. Fuck the writer/s. It's terrible.

    And as you said, he shows his lightsaber for no fucking reason. 

    There was enough new stuff in Solo that I liked it. Paul Bettany, for instance. We've never had just a normal, middle-aged human villain. Red Letter Media had some good insights about this... something about how the Solo movie was more noir than Star Wars, or something. I can't remember the genre.

    The mercs part made me laugh because it was like everyone was surprised she was a woman, and if terrible shit like that is done just so, I kind of love it. So I barely noticed the dumb plotline about them being rebels. Or maybe it's just that I expect it at this point. Yeah, more of that I think.

    "It makes what should be a huge expansive galaxy feel really small." 

    Yep.
  •  Star Wars has such a fine line with its fans. You really need to nail it or you will get the feedback that 7 and 8 got.

    episode 7 was good but fans called it derivative. Episode 8 was different but wasn’t the fans theories or Luke. 

    I don’t think it’s impossivble for them to make a good movie. They just need to find a way to honor the originals and characters but still make it different. 

    I still think the biggest issue with this set of movies is not having the entire plan laid out from start to finish then tell the directors they can fill the gaps but need to follow the overall plot. Episode 7 and 8 are just widely different movies With different visions and ideas. 

    I’m still in on the series. I still think this is a Skywalker story and Ben/Kylo is the main character. I’m also not really that disappointed with the whole Luke thing. They just needed to make it more cohesive. 
    JaimieTweeniegirl
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited July 2018
    If Kylo is the main character, they're doing a terrible job with the screen time thing.
    rkcrawf
  • I agree that Kylo may end up having a redemption, but Rey is the closest thing they have to a protagonist. 

    Director Krennic in Rogue One was an ordinary middle-aged villain. 
  • They said this was the Skywalker trilogy. Unless they retcon Rey then Kylo is the only character who fits the bill. Episodes 1-3 was Anakins fall, episodes 4-6 was Luke resisting and winning. Episodes 7-9 could be about Kylos redemption. 

    This would be 3 generations of Skywalkers for 3 trilogies 

    Pretty sure after the Luke backlash that JJ isnt going to risk pissing off the fans and will decide to redeem Kylo and the light will prevail. 
    JaimieT[Deleted User]gguenotweeniegirl
  • Also I wouldn’t be Super surprised if you added ip the screen time that Kylo has similar run time to the other characters. You can also make the argument that 4-6 was still Anakins story
  • Hatorian said:

    Pretty sure after the Luke backlash that JJ isnt going to risk pissing off the fans and will decide to redeem Kylo and the light will prevail. 
    The biggest issue with this would be Rian Johnson painted JJ in a corner in terms of Villians. Kylo is the only villain now. Going to be tough to write a satisfying episode 9 without a real bad villain dying in the end. 
    rkcrawfJaimieT
  • Hatorian said:
    Hatorian said:

    Pretty sure after the Luke backlash that JJ isnt going to risk pissing off the fans and will decide to redeem Kylo and the light will prevail. 
    The biggest issue with this would be Rian Johnson painted JJ in a corner in terms of Villians. Kylo is the only villain now. Going to be tough to write a satisfying episode 9 without a real bad villain dying in the end. 
    There's Hux, but to your point, RJ reduced him to a punchline. 
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    If it's Anakin's story, they did a terrible job with the screen time thing. ;)

    I don't feel like running the math myself, but I feel comfortable saying Rey has 3x the screen time that Kylo does, across the two movies.
    rkcrawfHatorian
  • Yea. There’s no way for Hux.

    i think the best thing they can do now is maybe set up the Knights of Ren as the big bad. It would be awesome to get a TV miniseries that’s set between 8 and 9 that sets this up for the last episode. However, unless they delay 9 to 2020 and can get these actors to commit that wouldn’t happen. I imagine it will be a book. We will get KoR as the big bad for last episode with Kylo redeeming himself by fighting alongside Rey in ep 9.
  • It would be Super bold for them to change the next standalone movie into 8.5. They would never do that but it might be the best idea for a satisfying conclusion. 
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited July 2018
    I found stats on IMDB and somewhere else. (I'm lazy, I can't remember, it was a nice graph that detailed all of the movies so it seemed legit.) 

    TFA
    Kylo - 23 (prev 41)
    Rey - 45 (prev 1:25)

    TLJ
    Kylo - 15
    Rey - 33

    Total
    Kylo - 38
    Rey - 1:18

    So it's Rey 2.05 to 1. Or 2x.
    Hatorian
  • LukeLuke Central Illinois
    I would argue good Star Wars stories can be done.  

    Both the Kotor games are great examples of taking things we know (Jedi, Sith, superweapons) and doing them in a distant past where nothing really ties directly to the OT.  

    In fact one of the best things Lucas probably ever did was forbid most of the EU creators from messing with the movie cannon.  

    It actually challenged people to go beyond the films.  

    But that's how bad the Prequels were (though in hindsight I admire that at least Lucas was always about doing something new or different).  People forget we had a good decade of good Star Wars spin-of media before fans turned on the series.  
    JaimieTweeniegirl
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    edited July 2018
    Those numbers seem pretty high. Rey was basically in half the total screen time? I know she isn’t in any of the big battle sequences or the first 10 minutes of either movie. Same with Kylo though. Definitely would take the under on both of those if someone randomly asked 

    I’m definitely too lazy to really check and I’m definitely not watching either movie for at least a year. So I’ll take it as truth. I’m pretty sure JJ envisioned Rey’s parentage as someone we know. Rian through it out the window. Also Kylo actually has an arc so far. Rey really doesn’t. She’s still epic and a bad ass. She really hasn’t learned or grown in such a way that she’s a really good protagonist in my opinion.

    kylo though has went from episode 7 trying to be Darth Vader junior to “letting the past die” and become his own man with the balls to kill anyone and everyone in his way. His struggle with the light and dark has been much more interesting
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Luke said:
    I would argue good Star Wars stories can be done.  

    Both the Kotor games are great examples of taking things we know (Jedi, Sith, superweapons) and doing them in a distant past where nothing really ties directly to the OT.  

    In fact one of the best things Lucas probably ever did was forbid most of the EU creators from messing with the movie cannon.  

    It actually challenged people to go beyond the films.  

    But that's how bad the Prequels were (though in hindsight I admire that at least Lucas was always about doing something new or different).  People forget we had a good decade of good Star Wars spin-of media before fans turned on the series.  

    Yeah, I need to read it again, but the Heir to the Empire trilogy was great. (I know, I know, Thrawn is being made canon now.) 
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited July 2018
    Hatorian said:
    Those numbers seem pretty high. 

    Good call, they were high. I just used IMDB stats across the board, forget that lame, wrong infograph. Updated the comment. Still essentially the same ratio though... moved 0.05 points in Kylo's favor.
    Hatorian
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Hatorian said:
    Also Kylo actually has an arc so far. Rey really doesn’t. She’s still epic and a bad ass. She really hasn’t learned or grown in such a way that she’s a really good protagonist in my opinion.

    Tom and Lorenzo's costume analysis (which I linked earlier in this thread but here it is again) really showed me her growth. This is not to say the script did it well, but the costuming tells a great story. 
    weeniegirl
  • s. JaimieT said:
    Hatorian said:
    Also Kylo actually has an arc so far. Rey really doesn’t. She’s still epic and a bad ass. She really hasn’t learned or grown in such a way that she’s a really good protagonist in my opinion.

    Tom and Lorenzo's costume analysis (which I linked earlier in this thread but here it is again) really showed me her growth. This is not to say the script did it well, but the costuming tells a great story. 
    I have to disagree with this. Don’t see how a costume design can be considered good character development. Kylo’s arc is very clear and written well based on the dialogue, scenes and acting. 

    Everything about Kylo’s scenes show a well written and thought out character. From killing his dad to smashing the mask to taking over the FO to finally understanding why he went bad in a realistic and sort of sad manner.

    I think it’s very poor writing if I need to read someone’s analysis 6 months after 2 movies to identify a characters arc/growth. If you didn’t share that article I would have never came to those conclusions. And I’ve had hours Long discussions with die hard SW fans and none of them picked this up. 
  • I think the pieces of this trilogy don’t go together as well and sometimes strain credulity because of the lack of vision/plan and lack of worldbuilding. 

    Hatorian said:
     Star Wars has such a fine line with its fans. You really need to nail it or you will get the feedback that 7 and 8 got.

    episode 7 was good but fans called it derivative. Episode 8 was different but wasn’t the fans theories or Luke. 

    I don’t think it’s impossivble for them to make a good movie. They just need to find a way to honor the originals and characters but still make it different. 

    I still think the biggest issue with this set of movies is not having the entire plan laid out from start to finish then tell the directors they can fill the gaps but need to follow the overall plot. Episode 7 and 8 are just widely different movies With different visions and ideas. 

    I’m still in on the series. I still think this is a Skywalker story and Ben/Kylo is the main character. I’m also not really that disappointed with the whole Luke thing. They just needed to make it more cohesive. 

    Hatorian
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Hatorian said:
    s. JaimieT said:
    Hatorian said:
    Also Kylo actually has an arc so far. Rey really doesn’t. She’s still epic and a bad ass. She really hasn’t learned or grown in such a way that she’s a really good protagonist in my opinion.

    Tom and Lorenzo's costume analysis (which I linked earlier in this thread but here it is again) really showed me her growth. This is not to say the script did it well, but the costuming tells a great story. 
    I have to disagree with this. Don’t see how a costume design can be considered good character development. Kylo’s arc is very clear and written well based on the dialogue, scenes and acting. 

    Everything about Kylo’s scenes show a well written and thought out character. From killing his dad to smashing the mask to taking over the FO to finally understanding why he went bad in a realistic and sort of sad manner.

    I think it’s very poor writing if I need to read someone’s analysis 6 months after 2 movies to identify a characters arc/growth. If you didn’t share that article I would have never came to those conclusions. And I’ve had hours Long discussions with die hard SW fans and none of them picked this up. 

    I guess I expressed myself poorly because I don't think we're disagreed about Rey.
    Hatorian
  • Do you guys know what the canon or official adaption explanation for the events and rise The First Order in the decades between ROTJ and TFA is?
  • Do you guys know what the canon or official adaption explanation for the events and rise The First Order in the decades between ROTJ and TFA is?
    https://screenrant.com/star-wars-events-between-return-jedi-force-awakens/

    Not sure what else else has been filled in since the article was written though. 
  • I realize I am in the minority with regards to having watched both Animated Series but generally speaking I am glad they acknowledged Clone Wars stuff in both spin off films aka Saw Guerrera and Maul. Even that quick mention by Lando to Beckett about him killing Aurra Sing was a nice little treat. 

    @JaimieT I'm not sure if they were trying to put Maul in there because they felt the need to lay ground work for future projects(like Marvel I guess) so I can understand people not understanding what the F was going on.  Seems they might have been better off leaving him out but I personally enjoyed the moment, although I agree the light saber wasn't needed. Ray Park looked amazing though and I also love that they brought in Sam Witwer to voice him considering he voiced Maul for the Clone Wars and Rebels.

    I realize the majority of Star Wars fandom will only watch the movies so there will always be things that only mean something to some people. I'm just not sure it's fair that some people(generally speaking) use the fact that they dont watch the cartoons or read the books and then use it as a way to explain why something in any of the movies was bad. I would have loved to learn more about Snoke in both of the sequels but if it ultimately comes out in another medium then so be it. I mean Clone Wars and Rebels combined is around 72 hours of content. That is a shit ton to try to watch not to mention the books that have come out. We're only like 5 years since the new canon started so it will presumably only get "worse" in a way for people that only watch the movies. Maybe this Jon Favreau live action show will help with that whenever it does come out. 

    Ultimately I just enjoy the stories and the world building with regards to the animated series. They have done some odd and silly things *cough*LightSpeedSpaceWhales*cough* but there have been a lot of great things like more insight into Anankin's distrust for the Jedi Order, which helps with his decision to turn to the dark side, or Liam Neeson coming back to reprise Qui Gon to help Yoda in his Force Ghost training.

    I'm definitely looking forward to Ep9 to wrap up the 9 movie saga and looking even more forward to future story telling beyond Ep9. 
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    @Jovial_Falcon I mean, either you think a movie should stand on its own or you think it's okay if you need to have read books first. Shrug.

    And I'll reiterate... Darth Maul wasn't bad; the timing was ridiculous.
    rkcrawf
  • @JaimieT I guess only the Aftermath books really count at this as far as something you "should" read first but I don't think it even matters. They pumped those things out so fast before TFA it was sort of waste instead of taking their time which of course is their biggest crutch right now.

    I guess what I meant to say is that if books provide more backstory after you have seen a movie then I don't think it is that bad of a thing. It also depends on what the topic is. Snoke wasn't the best example. If it was Paps instead Snoke there would be the same feeling so I take my words back on that. His scenes in TLJ were badass and I watch those scenes more than any other. If they don't do anything in 9 about it then it really is a shame.
    If they came out with a Poe back story book I wouldn't see any harm in that. How much information is an adequate amount for a given character? I guess it depends on the fan who is watching or if they even care.

    Up until the fact that TLJ took place immediately after TFA there was always some sort of time jump and things would be different every time we came back. To me it was always appealing to think about what happened in the in between. I really hope JJ goes back to that for EP9 because TLJ needed that badly. 

  • Anybody seen the bonus features & deleted scenes from The Last Jedi??

    There were a few scenes that really should have been in the film.
    weeniegirl
  • @darwinfeeshy is one of the deleted scenes the 2nd or 3rd training session that we never got to see between Luke and Rey?
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    I really liked the deleted scene about the raiding party, but after it turned into Luke jebaiting Rey I'm glad it was cut.
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