Star Wars - General Discussion (Spoilers all)

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  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited September 2018
    @Nickplay When I made it clear that I was done arguing about whether The Last Jedi was good or not, that is not a signal to quote one of my (two-month old!) posts with yet another "actually The Last Jedi was bad" take. I don't have the energy to talk about Star Wars on here any more, so please leave me out of it.

    You have the top comment in the thread, a comment which by your own admission is "petty and meaningless." Instead of chiding people who are responsive to that and don't continue to read all of your comments, you could edit your comment. Nickplay has 18 comments on this forum.
    FreibergNickplay
  • @JaimieT The only thing I want to do less than have an argument about Star Wars right now is have an argument about an argument about Star Wars. So I'll edit the comment, but again, please leave me be.
    Nickplay
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited September 2018
    @Nickplay - You didn't do anything wrong, thanks for commenting. Although I'm guessing since your profile pic is Rear Window this isn't your first day on the internet. 
    Nickplay
  • The problem with Dune is that the first book is the only one that seems actually intelligible on a movie screen.


    Not to turn this into Dune Talk, but I disagree.  I think all of the Dune novels could be made into good films.  Sure they’d be a bit out there and would require paying close attention to what’s going on and who’s who, but they wouldn’t do anything that doesn’t have precedent and something described as “Star Wars for adults” should require paying attention and challenge the viewer.  At their most surreal they aren’t any stranger or more bizarre than ‘2001 Space Odyssey’ and at their most politically dense they aren’t any harder to follow than the machinations of early ‘Game of Thrones,’ I think it could be argued that something like ‘Brazil’ is almost a forebearer in its melding of bizarre and political.  Frank Herbert’s writing style is dense and Byzantine, and the series spans thousands of years and dozens of planets, but that hardly makes them unfilmable or unintelligible.  In a time in which ‘Catch-22,’ ‘Apocalypse Now,’ and ‘Americans Psycho’ are all critically and financially successful I don’t think any novel can be called unfilmable.
  • You're hardier than I am.  I got through Dune Messiah with my eyes crossing and that was that for me.  I hear Children is where lots of people give up the ghost.  

    asmallcat said:
    The problem with Dune is that the first book is the only one that seems actually intelligible on a movie screen.

    Freiberg said:

     especially when Dennis Villeneuve is saying he wants his Dune films to be “Star Wars for adults” and as someone middle aged that sounds pretty damn good right now.

    I tried to finish the series. God knows I tried.

    Also, given the history of adapting Dune to the screen, I'll wait for the reviews to come in on this new series. If the writers are good, and they jettison everything after the first book and write their own ending to the story, maybe it can be great. 




    I wanna say I got to Heretics (and didn't finish it), but honestly after Messiah, which was fine but still a let down compared to the original, the rest kind of blended together into one bland, meandering mess for me. 
  • MattyWeavesMattyWeaves Mid-State New York
    I know this is really off topic from the last page or so, but I've tried watching Solo three times this week.

    I've turned it off each time and I don't think I'm going to try again. It's not even bad or terrible or whatever the critics might say, I'm just bored.
    Aww_PHuuCk
  • Eh,  I remember Dune Messiah being so convoluted and dependent on internal character thoughts that I just thought it would be nearly impossible to do well.

    Freiberg said:
    The problem with Dune is that the first book is the only one that seems actually intelligible on a movie screen.


    Not to turn this into Dune Talk, but I disagree.  I think all of the Dune novels could be made into good films.  Sure they’d be a bit out there and would require paying close attention to what’s going on and who’s who, but they wouldn’t do anything that doesn’t have precedent and something described as “Star Wars for adults” should require paying attention and challenge the viewer.  At their most surreal they aren’t any stranger or more bizarre than ‘2001 Space Odyssey’ and at their most politically dense they aren’t any harder to follow than the machinations of early ‘Game of Thrones,’ I think it could be argued that something like ‘Brazil’ is almost a forebearer in its melding of bizarre and political.  Frank Herbert’s writing style is dense and Byzantine, and the series spans thousands of years and dozens of planets, but that hardly makes them unfilmable or unintelligible.  In a time in which ‘Catch-22,’ ‘Apocalypse Now,’ and ‘Americans Psycho’ are all critically and financially successful I don’t think any novel can be called unfilmable.

  • asmallcat said:
    KingKobra said:
    kuman07 said:
    We’ll probably see an article like this every time a movie passes it in global box office. I still haven’t seen it, but have the 4K blu-ray preordered. Solo was doomed before it even hit theaters and I think the bad mojo wasn’t enough to get over the fairly positive reviews once released. 
    Hopefully Disney learned from that. Star Wars fans, for whatever reason, don't want a marvel-esque release schedule... it's clear that these random ancillary stories about single characters aren't gonna get fans in the theatres. I am not at all surprised this killed the Obi Wan and Boba Fett movies. 
    I think you're confusing correlation with cause. If the films were better I think the appetite would be there. If Iron Man and Thor had been shitty movies, people would have been shitting on Marvel and Feige. "What an insane plan, lead off with two heroes no one outside of Marvel fanboys care about. I'm no surprised they canceled Dr. Strange and Guardians of the Galaxy."

    With Marvel, these are essentially the stories I grew up with, only better, able to stand up to semi-adult scrutiny. Their plots were all carefully constructed years in advance by a talented team that had real passion and respect for the material. With the latest Star Wars, it's the stories I grew up with, only worse. I thought the Plinkett review was especially good at homing in on The Last Jedi's  core problem; Johnson's obsession with subverting expectations and telling an unconventional Star Wars story. He succeeded too well. I now no longer expect to be entertained by a main canon Star Wars film, nor do I know what what makes Star Wars, Star Wars anymore.  Bravo. The only reason TFA worked as well as it did, and in hindsight it didn't work all that well, is that Abrams is a right down the center of the plate Star Wars fan. It's incredible to me that Kennedy still has her job, that the Mouse is this careless with it's premiere property. 

    I'm with Jaimie and Plinkett. I'm tired of mediocrity. I'm tired of /r/starwars turning into /r/dc_cinematic, where they hide behind tepid box office results, and dismiss any talk of internal friction as hater talk. I'm tired of being told by fellow fans that I'm in a small minority and my opinion doesn't matter. You know what? The reality is if they had made the Star Wars film *I* wanted, all the TRUE STAR WARS FANS would have fucking loved it, too. Hate all you want, I 110% believe that. I'm honestly not excited by a single Star Wars project currently announced, and have no real incentive to "give them a shot". 

    Except I do, because the reality is that I have an 11 year old who absolutely loves everything to do with Star Wars. I can't adequately explain the frustration of Rian Johnson fucking up a Star Wars movie so badly that I've only watched it once with him even though it's free on Netflix. Oh well, I'll always have opening night of TFA, which was a top 10 dad moment for me.
    This is exactly how I feel. I’m hoping for the best because I’m an optimist but I doubt I’ll be returned to the fan I once was. 
  • Freiberg said:
    Nickplay said:
    Alright, let's make it quick...Last Jedi was great, the amount of people who hated it is smaller than you think it is, the amount of people who hated it had little to nothing to do with Solo's poor performance, the amount of people who hated it will have little to nothing to do with Episode 9's performance, Kathleen Kennedy should not be fired for Crimes Against Star Wars or whatever and almost certainly won't be unless more films start bombing and critical response drops, and people really need to chill out about this whole Star Wars thing. Fandom has been having this exact same tired, circular argument for eight months now, and I honestly don't know what to say anymore. Positioning the people behind Star Wars as the evil Empire that need to be taken down? Calling for a woman who has overseen four films, three of which have been massive critical and commercial successes, to be sacked because you personally didn't like them? I don't understand it anymore. I mean, I get it, I like the films as they are now, so it's not like I'm going to have much to complain about, but I have to believe I wouldn't be acting like this even if I hated them.

    Honestly, I'm just confused at this point. I really want to try and understand the mindset of someone who is so Mad About Star Wars that they're out here making YouTube videos metagaming the best way to take down Kathleen Kennedy and "save" the franchise, but I can't.
    Last Jedi was extremely far from great. I despise the toxic fandom that treated some of the actors terribly but Rian Johnson did an awful job with the universe he handed the keys to.  And I’m someone who’s been a fan of Johnson’s since Brick. I have trepidation about episode 9 as well and thought Solo was decent. I am a Star Wars fan who sees every film opening night and several times again. If Episode 9 is the same as Last Jedi that all changes, and I’ve heard that from several other fans and work colleagues. So many people say it’s a small but vocal portion of the fans who didn’t like Last Jedi. It’s not. It’s at least half. I wish them all the success in the world and hope the spirit of that universe is steered properly.  
    I absolutely *hated* TLJ and still saw it multiple times in the theater.  Plinkett says pretty much everything I think, minus the universe breaking kamikaze attack, but that’s doesn’t mean I don’t love SW anymore it just means that the new films aren’t being made with my fandom in mind.  And while that sucks for me it’s okay, my nieces are enthralled with Rey and have little stuffed porgs and want to be generals like Leia when they grow up and that’s awesome.  But that doesn’t change the fact that I’m not excited about SW anymore, and that breaks my heart.  For a while after TLJ I thought it would be okay that the main story isn’t for me because the standalone films were, I loved R1 and liked Solo a lot, but when they cancelled the standalones I knew the day had come when SW had moved fully beyond me.  As it stands, more than a year from 9 being released so I reserve the right to change my mind, I don’t even know if I’ll see it in the theater, especially when Dennis Villeneuve is saying he wants his Dune films to be “Star Wars for adults” and as someone middle aged that sounds pretty damn good right now.
    Great position Freiberg, I’ve had similar thoughts that maybe SW has moved past me. I absolutely love Rey and all the new resistance characters. And when I first saw the kamikaze run all I could think was hope beautifully it was done and then as a I walked out began having the universe breaking thoughts. I am hoping the new direction of SW still engages new fans, I don’t want the universe to die, but I’m sad that I can’t maybe go with it anymore. 
    FreibergJaimieT
  • @Nickplay When I made it clear that I was done arguing about whether The Last Jedi was good or not, that is not a signal to quote one of my (two-month old!) posts with yet another "actually The Last Jedi was bad" take. I don't have the energy to talk about Star Wars on here any more, so please leave me out of it.
    Apologies SomeBiscuit, I’m trying to be more active on the forums and saw this thread move to the top and it’s someting I’m passionate and haven’t commented on before on the BM forums. I meant no offense and was only seeking banter. 
    [Deleted User]
  • JaimieT said:
    @Nickplay - You didn't do anything wrong, thanks for commenting. Although I'm guessing since your profile pic is Rear Window this isn't your first day on the internet. 
    Ty Jaimie, it’s my 2nd day on the internet so I’m not totally wet behind the ears ! :-p ty for the reassurance ! I’m enjoying the diversity of thought on the forums !
    JaimieT
  • I know this is really off topic from the last page or so, but I've tried watching Solo three times this week.

    I've turned it off each time and I don't think I'm going to try again. It's not even bad or terrible or whatever the critics might say, I'm just bored.
    Ha, you're the only one actually staying ON topic the last few pages =P 
    Freiberg
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited September 2018

    Disney's CEO Agrees That Maybe One Star Wars Movie a Year Is a Bit Too Much


    "I made the timing decision, and as I look back, I think the mistake that I made—I take the blame—was a little too much, too fast. [....] But I think we’re gonna be a little bit more careful about volume and timing. And the buck stops here on that."

    ....... yeah that's the problem. It's totally not that they're mediocre movies. It's when we get too many movies, we like them less.
    Freiberg
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited September 2018
    Hey, it's easier to make Ant Man 2 work than Solo.  Everyone is really invested in Ant Man and the Wasp.
  • Up until EP7 we waited 3 years for every movie. It makes sense to me.
  • IMO they need someone who’s invested into the franchise to oversee things and control the “vision” (ala Marvel). While giving different directors chances to make their mark is OK, if it doesn’t mesh or “link” well then you just have a disjointed universe. I wouldn’t mind 1 movie a year if they can have a tighter reign on what they are trying to do. If they are just trying to make SW movies, that won’t really work, since you’d have to be invested in seeing movies that don’t add up to anything (making it hard to look forward to the next). Right now they are doing the “just make SW movies” and that’s not working. 
    JaimieTFreibergweeniegirl
  • I think this has been said elsewhere in this thread, but quality of the movies aside, one of the reasons the marvel model works so well is because of how distinct the characters are and how many stories they can tell. People liked rogue one cause it was a fun movie, but also cause it was all new characters we didn't know (although I don't know how many people were desperate to learn how the death star plans were stolen). I'm sure at least part of the luke-warm reception to Solo was that no one cared about Han's backstory.

    I know that the difference is that Marvel has hundreds of distinct heroes in thousands of stories to draw from, whereas even the now non-cannon SW expanded universe the stories basically all focused on the core characters from the movies, but I'm sure good writers could find ways to write interesting stories about new characters. Give us some old republic stories. Give us some galactic rim stories. 
    [Deleted User]
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    It's like buying Marvel and saying "All previous comic book aren't canon." Whose decision was that? Fire them. They had a lot of material to pull from the books, and you needn't have made a big fucking deal about ignoring them or not. 
    Freiberg
  • JaimieT said:
    It's like buying Marvel and saying "All previous comic book aren't canon." Whose decision was that? Fire them. They had a lot of material to pull from the books, and you needn't have made a big fucking deal about ignoring them or not. 
    The problem was literally every moment from the death star blowing up was completely full in the EU, up to and including the death of every major character. Oh, and most of the books suuuccckkkkeeddd (as someone who read way too many of them in middle and high school). So instead of trying to pick and choose, they just said it's all not canon but we're free to use any of it we want (and they already have with Grand Admiral Thrawn, who was in books that were a rare bright spot of competent writing in the EU). 
    [Deleted User]Aww_PHuuCk
  • I just finished the latest Thrawn audio book and enjoyed it very much. I hope after EP9 they start doing stuff with the Unknown Regions. They would have a huge playground to do whatever they wanted because very little has been revealed, even with the 2 Thrawn books out so far. 

    Fingers crossed the Double D's are tackling Thrawn and the Chiss.
  • I just finished the latest Thrawn audio book and enjoyed it very much. I hope after EP9 they start doing stuff with the Unknown Regions. They would have a huge playground to do whatever they wanted because very little has been revealed, even with the 2 Thrawn books out so far. 

    Fingers crossed the Double D's are tackling Thrawn and the Chiss.
    I think E10-12 needs to be the new new new republic building out a sustainable system and maybe Rey actually running a Jedi academy and showing how they restart the Jedi. 

    But then hen the main bad guy is just a strategic genius ALA littlefinger who starts playing chess with everyone playing checkers and just oversmarts the republic and while being an underdog is able to wreak havoc and drive the republic on the brink. 

    i still think that’s what they should have done for 7-9. New Republic=strong. Jedi academy going well. But a nefarious and genius evil being that is tearing shit apart and causing chaos and dissection across the galaxy with an ultimate master plan to murder the republic leadership. 
    [Deleted User]
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited September 2018
    ^^ Yeah, like Thrawn. But the fucking idiots just tossed the fantastic Thrawn trilogy, no attempt to adapt it with different heroes.

    Re: Star Wars books being bad, have you read comic books @asmallcat? ;)
    Hatorian
  • @Hatorian I agree that the Episodes after 9 should be that but I figured Rain and the Double D's were doing their own thing away from Episodes.
  • They should have done anything but have scary Imperial successors versus still weak Republican Rebels with zero to minimal explanation through two films.  The Rebels defeated the big bad and his scary henchman, and..... the Rebellion didn't coalesce and succeed? Por que?

    Hatorian said:
    I just finished the latest Thrawn audio book and enjoyed it very much. I hope after EP9 they start doing stuff with the Unknown Regions. They would have a huge playground to do whatever they wanted because very little has been revealed, even with the 2 Thrawn books out so far. 

    Fingers crossed the Double D's are tackling Thrawn and the Chiss.

    i still think that’s what they should have done for 7-9. New Republic=strong. Jedi academy going well. But a nefarious and genius evil being that is tearing shit apart and causing chaos and dissection across the galaxy with an ultimate master plan to murder the republic leadership. 



    HatorianFreiberg
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited September 2018
    Yeah, I've been reading a few classic collections.

    Spiderman Omnibus-  Did you know the first several years of Spiderman alternates between being about the crime fighting and being a super powered take on Archie Comics and Riverdale teen drama?  

    The Frank Miller Daredevil?  Took a good long while to get going.  

    Chris Claremont's X-Men?  Wasn't batting 1,000 there.  And the classic arcs last max 3 issues before it's time for something completely different....



    JaimieT said:
    ^^ Yeah, like Thrawn. But the fucking idiots just tossed the fantastic Thrawn trilogy, no attempt to adapt it with different heroes.

    Re: Star Wars books being bad, have you read comic books @asmallcat? ;)

    JaimieT
  • JaimieT said:
    ^^ Yeah, like Thrawn. But the fucking idiots just tossed the fantastic Thrawn trilogy, no attempt to adapt it with different heroes.

    Re: Star Wars books being bad, have you read comic books @asmallcat? ;)
    Not really lol. But the SW novels had, like, a 5% good rate. Maybe comics are that low too, but there's a lot more of them with a lot more characters. 

    And they still own the rights to the Thrawn story. They can still adapt it. It's just not official canon anymore that it has to happen exactly as it did in the books. 
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    I'm gonna share this because I think it's fantastic. She has her finger on the pulse of this, I think. I like what she says about the fan criticism at 10:30.

    Also, holy shit, Mark Hamill is not cooling off!


  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited October 2018
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA

    LOL. Hired for political discord, stayed for the Star Wars outrage.
    Freiberg
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