James Gunn fired from Guardians 3

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Comments

  • edited July 2018
    Chinaski said:
    alright, gonna throw this out there before this thread gets outta hand and closed. pineapple on pizza? hehe eeee. no :# ? ok i'll see my why out and continue watching the A's n Giants...
    I haven't been brave enough to wade in on the larger pizza thread - but pineapple pepperoni pizza is fantastic.
  • edited July 2018
    @JaimieT I'm pretty comfortable calling a situation in which someone loudly announces they're leaving an argument, but makes sure to get in one last dig before leaving a mic drop, or at least an attempt at one. Point taken on the fact that the insult to everyone else is probably more worth criticizing, though.

    Anyways, I'm dropping out of this one myself now, because it's gotten heated and I feel like I went a bit too far with my last post. I stand by the general points I made, but apologies to @All the Chickens for the rudeness.

  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited July 2018
    @All the Chickens Not sure how you call this thread an echo chamber when literally only one person here is pro-firing. I'd say there's been a pretty wide range of different takes on it, even among the people who are against the firing, or neutral.

    Also not sure how you could call out "grandstanding" and then pull the whole "oh, everyone here is so childish, I'm so above it all, and I shan't be commenting on this any further" move. It's the same kind of lazy righteous indignation and intellectual posturing you're supposedly against, so why post it? No one cares about your mic drop.
    Its hardly grandstanding to say that you arent going to swap insults with someone and bowing out of of the conversation. Considering the only other option is, you know, swapping insults with someone. If that's what you want to call it, then I'm fine with that. If so, it wouldn't be my first or last hypocritical act.

    And you know, you're right. There were differing views in this thread on Gunn. I was speaking more in general on the forum and in regards to political leanings, but I can't argue with that.

    Without sounding too indignant or dropping any mics here, I don't have much else to add on the saga of James Gunn.
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    @JaimieT I'm pretty comfortable calling a situation in which someone loudly announces they're leaving an argument, but makes sure to get in one last dig before leaving a mic drop, or at least an attempt at one. Point taken on the fact that the insult to everyone else is probably more worth criticizing, though.

    Anyways, I'm dropping out of this one myself now, because it's gotten heated and I feel like I went a bit too far with my last post. I stand by the general points I made, but apologies to __ for the rudeness.


    Oh yeah, "we're smart enough" wasn't intended as a dig on your interpretation.
  • @JaimieT Oh, I got confused, I thought you were hitting me with the funny react ironically because you thought I'd posted a bad take.
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited July 2018
    @JaimieT Oh, I got confused, I thought you were hitting me with the funny react ironically because you thought I'd posted a bad take.

    No, it just literally made me laugh. :lol: I just wanted to add that I observed an insult. "Also all the people who discuss politics here live in a bubble!" Jesus Christ...
    SomeBiscuit
  • If we are grandstanding here can I just say how awesome I am for not commenting on this. 
    Aww_PHuuCkFlukesMurderbearTaraC73Schlupprusskelly
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    Hatorian said:
    If we are grandstanding here can I just say how awesome I am for not commenting on this. 
    The Grandest Stand.
    HatorianFlukesanubus21
  • MattyWeavesMattyWeaves Mid-State New York
    edited July 2018
    It sucks he won't be directing.

    TaraC73russkelly
  • I think part of the reason for this sort of thing is that the internet has made it so easy for people to publish and broadcast. It's a huge privilege to be able share one's views with hundreds to millions of people, but the barriers to entry are now so low that lots of people don't respect their media or their audiences. There tend to not be editors intercepting people's bad social media posts, either.

    Also, I think there is an unfunny, trollish internet subculture that has slithered out of sites like 4chan and got into the mainstream. People now use trolling as a substitute for comedy.

  • Let's run a thought experiment.  Presuppose that James Gunn hasn't had uncomfortable Twitter or on-set / professional issues for the last 6 years.  Furthermore, let's say James Gunn was a terrible alcoholic 6-12 years ago, and cleaned up his act and has been sober since then.   Does anything about this situation change?
    Murderbear
  • Alkaid13 said:
    While we’re on the topic, why does Disney still work with Johnny Depp?
    I am guessing that with his rumored $30,000 a month wine habit that Disney owns a bunch of vineyards so it's like getting him to work for free.
    alexander.klassen
  • Let's run a thought experiment.  Presuppose that James Gunn hasn't had uncomfortable Twitter or on-set / professional issues for the last 6 years.  Furthermore, let's say James Gunn was a terrible alcoholic 6-12 years ago, and cleaned up his act and has been sober since then.   Does anything about this situation change?
    Addiction is a disease. Are you trying to say being, at best, an internet edgelord making pedophile jokes is the same as an addiction? Cause it isn't. And I think it's pretty clear he wouldn't be fired for being a recovered alcoholic. What an odd thought experiment.

    To those saying "look at what hypocrites the people who called him out are!" Of course they are. They aren't doing this cause they are mad about what he said. They are mad about Rosanne. Also, they don't work for Disney, so there's not much Disney can do to them. Further, it's not like they made up the tweets. They just brought attention to them. Pointing out something that someone else posted in a public space is never, in an of itself, something we should decry, even if the motives are bad. Gunn said this stuff. Disney is a company. They had to weigh the exposure of keeping him employed versus the money loss from firing him. They decided it wasn't worth keeping him around. All corporations care about is profit. Stop looking to them to make moral decisions. 

    I'm ambivalent about this. On the one hand, it seems as an outside observer that these were just dumb internet edgelord jokes. Stupid, gross, but probably not worth being fired for 12 years later. On the other hand,  have a very hard time caring deeply about rich guy James Gunn getting fired. He's certainly not without sin, he should have a decent amount of wealth set aside from his previous work if he's remotely competent with money, and if there's actually a public outcry* against his firing, he'll get work somewhere else. 

    *As upset as the internet seems about this, I doubt they'll be an organized push in any fashion to get him hired by another company. This is the outrage of the day, in a week everyone will have forgotten James Gunn was a thing. 
    anubus21
  • russkellyrusskelly Indianapolis
    edited July 2018
    1: Who dug this up and why matters. 2: There is no alt left.
    JaimieTphoenyx1023
  • Just remember that when you're writing jokes you should imagine that you're talking to the most thin-skinned person who might read them over the next decade. That certainly won't have a chilling effect on humour, right?
    gguenotJoshTheBlack
  • kuman07kuman07 Kansas City
    edited July 2018
    I found this tweet interesting, I enjoy his comedy and  makes an interesting point.

    https://twitter.com/rickygervais/status/1020720053011066880?s=21

    And I don't know if this specifically has to do with Gunn. But it seems the last couple days on Twitter there is this weird attack on a lot of comedians and trying to dig up all tweets/jokes, some taken way out of context, trying to get them in trouble/fired I guess. Its very strange.

    gguenotalexander.klassen
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    kuman07 said:

    Yep.

    People should treat comedy like they treat religion... just because it offends you doesn't mean there aren't a lot of people who get something good out of it.

    Personally I don't think anything should be off the table for comedy. Comedy is an art too.
    kuman07JoshTheBlackcdrive
  • JaimieT said:
    kuman07 said:

    Yep.

    People should treat comedy like they treat religion... just because it offends you doesn't mean there aren't a lot of people who get something good out of it.

    Personally I don't think anything should be off the table for comedy. Comedy is an art too.
    Nothing is off the table for comedy, at least not in the US. Anyone is allowed to make any joke they want about anything. It's just that companies are free to choose not to associate with that comedian if they so choose. 

    I find it kind of ironic that a lot of people on twitter get mad about people saying comedian's jokes are offensive and they shouldn't make them as somehow curtailing a comedian's freedom to express themselves, without realizing that condemning someone for making statements you think are wrong is an expression of the exact same freedom. 

    And religion is a protected class. You aren't allowed to fire someone for their religious beliefs, generally speaking. Making jokes in bad taste is not. 
  • edited July 2018

    kuman07 said:
    I found this tweet interesting, I enjoy his comedy and  makes an interesting point.

    https://twitter.com/rickygervais/status/1020720053011066880?s=21

    And I don't know if this specifically has to do with Gunn. But it seems the last couple days on Twitter there is this weird attack on a lot of comedians and trying to dig up all tweets/jokes, some taken way out of context, trying to get them in trouble/fired I guess. Its very strange.

    "Joking about bad things isn't the same as doing bad things. The joke may not even be condoning bad things. It could be damming them. It depends on the actually joke. The subject of a joke and the target of a joke can be different. Being offended doesn't prove the joke is wrong."

    I see where he is coming from, but I don't agree. Something like this came up in an episode of Harmontown. I think Dan was justifying racist jokes and Kumail was trying to explain that this normalizes racism.
    asmallcat
  • kuman07kuman07 Kansas City
    edited July 2018

    kuman07 said:
    I found this tweet interesting, I enjoy his comedy and  makes an interesting point.

    https://twitter.com/rickygervais/status/1020720053011066880?s=21

    And I don't know if this specifically has to do with Gunn. But it seems the last couple days on Twitter there is this weird attack on a lot of comedians and trying to dig up all tweets/jokes, some taken way out of context, trying to get them in trouble/fired I guess. Its very strange.

    "Joking about bad things isn't the same as doing bad things. The joke may not even be condoning bad things. It could be damming them. It depends on the actually joke. The subject of a joke and the target of a joke can be different. Being offended doesn't prove the joke is wrong."

    I see where he is coming from, but I don't agree. Something like this came up in an episode of Harmontown. I think Dan was justifying racist jokes and Kumail was trying to explain that this normalizes racism.
    I think the point is that you can make a joke about say race but that doesn't necessarily mean its racist. It depends on the joke, the context, etc. I think he is going more towards there is this idea out there that there are certain subjects that nobody should joke about and how he doesn't agree with that.  This clips I think explains it best. Its interesting if you have about 15 minutes to listen.


  • I have a great pineapple pizza holocaust joke

    kuman07DoubleA_RonFlukesMattyWeavesphoenyx1023
  • kuman07kuman07 Kansas City
    asmallcat said:
    JaimieT said:
    kuman07 said:

    Yep.

    People should treat comedy like they treat religion... just because it offends you doesn't mean there aren't a lot of people who get something good out of it.

    Personally I don't think anything should be off the table for comedy. Comedy is an art too.
    Nothing is off the table for comedy, at least not in the US. Anyone is allowed to make any joke they want about anything. It's just that companies are free to choose not to associate with that comedian if they so choose. 

    I find it kind of ironic that a lot of people on twitter get mad about people saying comedian's jokes are offensive and they shouldn't make them as somehow curtailing a comedian's freedom to express themselves, without realizing that condemning someone for making statements you think are wrong is an expression of the exact same freedom. 

    And religion is a protected class. You aren't allowed to fire someone for their religious beliefs, generally speaking. Making jokes in bad taste is not. 
    Of course they have the right to have their opinions, but its the idea they have to take these jokes personally. You don't like the joke, that's fine. Its not for you, move along.

    Makes a funny but true analogy here:


    JaimieT
  • Yeah, this is an important point here - the jokes *were* shitty, and my problem wasn't the fact that he was fired for them, but the fact that he was fired for them a decade later, having already apologized for them years ago.

    I'm done talking on Gunn, but I don't want his firing to kickstart this same old argument about the value of "offensiveness". When you make jokes at the expensive of marginalized groups, all you're doing is (as @telephoneofmadness says) normalizing bigotry, even if you're doing it "ironically". It's punching down rather than punching up. Take, for example, Ricky Gervais himself, who could charitably be described as a massive dickhead, at least in my view. He recently put out a standup special that contained a bunch of lazy, bog-standard transphobic humour, and then spent the following days on Twitter, laughing at anyone who was offended by it, insisting that "offending them was the whole point". But what did he gain by offending a marginalized group? What value is there in that? So many comedians like to pretend that they're special and making a valuable contribution to the world by "pushing boundaries", and yet so few of them do it in an actually meaningful way. With Gervais, I think he's just trying to use offensiveness to distract from the fact that he's had nothing new or interesting to contribute to comedy in years.

    When I see someone preaching the value of "offensiveness" or "pushing boundaries", and their idea of "pushing boundaries" consists of a bunch of racism and rape jokes, I treat their opinions with about the level of respect I'd afford to the opinions of an edgy teenager. Gunn grew out of this behaviour - why start listening to takes from people like Gervais, who still haven't?
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    asmallcat said:
    JaimieT said:
    kuman07 said:

    Yep.

    People should treat comedy like they treat religion... just because it offends you doesn't mean there aren't a lot of people who get something good out of it.

    Personally I don't think anything should be off the table for comedy. Comedy is an art too.
    Nothing is off the table for comedy, at least not in the US. Anyone is allowed to make any joke they want about anything. It's just that companies are free to choose not to associate with that comedian if they so choose. 

    I find it kind of ironic that a lot of people on twitter get mad about people saying comedian's jokes are offensive and they shouldn't make them as somehow curtailing a comedian's freedom to express themselves, without realizing that condemning someone for making statements you think are wrong is an expression of the exact same freedom. 

    And religion is a protected class. You aren't allowed to fire someone for their religious beliefs, generally speaking. Making jokes in bad taste is not. 

    I agree, and I'm not literally saying comedians should be a protected class. I'm saying people should relax about comedy. I was speaking of social attitudes.

  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Yeah, this is an important point here - the jokes *were* shitty, and my problem wasn't the fact that he was fired for them, but the fact that he was fired for them a decade later, having already apologized for them years ago.

    I'm done talking on Gunn, but I don't want his firing to kickstart this same old argument about the value of "offensiveness". When you make jokes at the expensive of marginalized groups, all you're doing is (as @telephoneofmadness says) normalizing bigotry, even if you're doing it "ironically". It's punching down rather than punching up. Take, for example, Ricky Gervais himself, who could charitably be described as a massive dickhead, at least in my view. He recently put out a standup special that contained a bunch of lazy, bog-standard transphobic humour, and then spent the following days on Twitter, laughing at anyone who was offended by it, insisting that "offending them was the whole point". But what did he gain by offending a marginalized group? What value is there in that? So many comedians like to pretend that they're special and making a valuable contribution to the world by "pushing boundaries", and yet so few of them do it in an actually meaningful way. With Gervais, I think he's just trying to use offensiveness to distract from the fact that he's had nothing new or interesting to contribute to comedy in years.

    When I see someone preaching the value of "offensiveness" or "pushing boundaries", and their idea of "pushing boundaries" consists of a bunch of racism and rape jokes, I treat their opinions with about the level of respect I'd afford to the opinions of an edgy teenager. Gunn grew out of this behaviour - why start listening to takes from people like Gervais, who still haven't?

    Comedy is experimental. Comedians get to take risks and they get to flop. It's totally fine to think Gervais isn't a good comedian. Personally, I'll always be interested in his stuff. He's better with Stephen Merchant, but... I'll always keep an eye out.
  • @JaimieT Offensiveness for the sake of offensiveness is not a risk, it's a crutch. It's what you turn to when you have nothing else to say.
    asmallcat
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    @JaimieT Offensiveness for the sake of offensiveness is not a risk, it's a crutch. It's what you turn to when you have nothing else to say.

    Nope, I've laughed plenty of times in a, "Oh shit, did he just say that?" way. If it makes people laugh, it's comedy. Now, you can decide for yourself if the comedian is being offensive only to be offensive, and the laughing is a perk. Seems kind of counterintuitive when it's many people's livelihoods, but sure. 
    alexander.klassenkuman07
  • @JaimieT That's not my point. I've laughed at plenty of lazy humour before. That doesn't change the fact that it's lazy. When it's the kind of offensive humour that normalizes bigotry, I don't consider the fact that I might get a chuckle out of it to be a worthwhile trade-off.
  • edited July 2018
    It seems kind of insane to me that Comedians should get a pass on saying offensive shit just cause they are comedians. What about other artists? Can you write a song that's wildly offensive, and then suffer no blowback because you were just experimenting? 

    We're all capable of making our own judgement calls. Being a comedian doesn't grant someone a magical shield against all criticism. If a comedians entire act was about how black people steal shit, how Asians have slanty eyes and eat dogs, and how gay people are limp-wristed and effeminate, I think we'd all agree it would be fine for companies not to work with them. 
  • He was awful in public, he was called out for it in public, and he apologized for it in public years ago so it’s strange that this is actionable news. That said, in the current environment I think Disney’s decision is understandable especially with the black eye they already have from the John Lasseter fiasco.

    I really enjoyed both GotG movies so it’s a shame, but there are also a lot of talented folks out there without this kind of baggage so maybe it’s going to be an opportunity for someone else to get exposure to a big audience. If they bring Ron Howard in to salvage it, than that would be a shame and a missed opportunity.
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