Coronavirus / COVID-19

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  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    tom_g said:
    MRNA?
    Not sure what you mean. Moderna is one company. 10 years old. 

    I’m not gonna just forget hundred of years of abuse because one new company wants to revolutionise vaccines. 

    Pervatin (meth) was sold legally until the 1940s.

    Heroin was used in cough depressants. 

    Cocaine as well. 

    Look at what Bayer did in Germany during World War 2 and see if you want to buy aspirin again.

  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    Dee said:
    @Hatorian Well, I *think* I disagree with you but I’m not entirely sure what you’re railing against, though I still like you either way. 
    Thanks! It’s just my opinion :)

    im railing against the “I hope they die” and “everyone who doesn’t agree with me is anti-vaccinated/pro conspiracy theory” social media posts I see everywhere. There is some grey area. But as typical keyboard warriors need to make this into a us vs them thing. 
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    @Hatorian I think there’s a difference between those who are anti-vax and those who are vaccine-hesitant, though. The rabid anti-vax who spread lies and misinformation and won’t listen to reason and deliberately flout mask and social distancing rules are a danger to society. Their wilful stupidity and belligerence can and does kill other people. It’s hard for me to have any sympathy for any of them when they inevitably get sick - I can only hope they don’t take others down with them. 

    I understand vaccine hesitancy - this is a frightening time, and I felt hesitant about it myself. My uncle had a stroke 6 days after getting an AstraZeneca shot (he’s fine now). I was pretty happy when they decided to make Pfizer available to my age group because I don’t honestly know if I would have had the courage to get AZ. I am phobic about blood clots - to the point where I will go to a doctor if my leg hurts for more than a couple of hours. My rational brain knows a) not the same kind of blood clots, b) rare (though not as rare as people make it out to be), and c) Covid is more likely to kill me than the jab. But the irrational part of my brain just hears BLOOD CLOT BLOOD CLOT. 

    Of the people I work with who have said they won’t get the jab, one is vaccine hesitant, and for the same reason - she has a fear of the blood clot risk and she’s not in the eligible age group for Pfizer. The rest of them have very vocally announced things like it’s just a flu, people die every day, the vaccine gives you Covid, it’s been created too fast, etc. These are also the same people who complain nonstop about masks and lockdowns. I mean, what do you do with those people? If they don’t come to the party, we never get herd immunity, the virus continues to mutate, and we go around in circles forever. 
    HatorianCretanBull
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    Hatorian said:
    tom_g said:
    MRNA?
    Not sure what you mean. Moderna is one company. 10 years old. 

    I’m not gonna just forget hundred of years of abuse because one new company wants to revolutionise vaccines. 

    Pervatin (meth) was sold legally until the 1940s.

    Heroin was used in cough depressants. 

    Cocaine as well. 

    Look at what Bayer did in Germany during World War 2 and see if you want to buy aspirin again.

    Pharmaceutical companies have done terrible things. But pharmaceutical research and development is a wonderful thing. There are millions of people alive because of insulin, penicillin, statins, chemotherapy, etc. 
    HatorianMichelleJoshTheBlack
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    Think you hit the nail on the head. 

    For me, I don’t want to treat someone who is hesitant for a handful of real reasons the same as someone who says they turn you into gay frogs. 

    That’s really my only point. 
    Dee
  • MichelleMichelle California
    This is what I get to deal with from my sister and her friends.
    It's a losing battle with them.  As much as I love her, this is so frustrating.  I hate to say that my sister is part of the problem, because it makes me feel like a horrible sister to say it, but I mean, honestly.  And trying to talk reason with her so she no longer continues to believe things like this is like talking to a brick wall.  She shuts down & walks away.
    (She posted the meme & one of her friends made the comment.)


    Hatorian
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    edited August 9
    Don’t agree with the meme but That comment is 100%. I don’t see anything wrong with it. Just like a woman has the right to choose what happens with her pregnancy. People have the right to what goes in their body. 
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    Hatorian said:
    Don’t agree with the meme but That comment is 100%. I don’t see anything wrong with it. Just like a woman has the right to choose what happens with her pregnancy. People have the right to what goes in their body. 
    It’s not the same thing though. It’s a public health crisis. You ARE responsible for the health of others in this case. Imagine if millions of people were like nah, I don’t think I’ll bother getting this smallpox/polio/rubella vaccination. 
    MichelleasmallcatJoshTheBlackCretanBull
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    edited August 9

    Edit: 

    it’s very easy. Should you get it and help? Yes (good citizen!). Should you be forced to? Absolutely not (selfish asshole)

    I said my opinion was probably unpopular. I won’t try to change anyone’s mind. 

    Ultimately what I see as “my body my choice” is different than what others see. And Arguing fundamental differences on life beliefs is not winnable. 

    Plus I like you guys and don’t want to fight so I’ll concede defeat. :)
  • tom_gtom_g WV
    edited August 9
    https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/08/10/900854967/opioid-scandal-haunts-drug-companies-as-they-respond-to-pandemic

    I get it, I work in public health in West 'by God' Virginia - I just hope people doing good work (vaccine scientists) are not unfairly lumped in with others motivated exclusively by greed (C suite and marketing).
    Hatorian
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    tom_g said:
    https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/08/10/900854967/opioid-scandal-haunts-drug-companies-as-they-respond-to-pandemic

    I get it, I work in public health in West 'by God' Virginia - I just hope people doing good work (vaccine scientists) are not unfairly lumped in with others motivated exclusively by greed (C suite and marketing).
    I hope they lose so much money on these settlements that they finally realise they need to follow the Hippocratic oath just like doctors. 

    And yes. I agree just like I said don’t lump all vaccine hesitant people together. Don’t lump every medical business into one. 


  • Hatorian said:
    tom_g said:
    https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/08/10/900854967/opioid-scandal-haunts-drug-companies-as-they-respond-to-pandemic

    I get it, I work in public health in West 'by God' Virginia - I just hope people doing good work (vaccine scientists) are not unfairly lumped in with others motivated exclusively by greed (C suite and marketing).
    I hope they lose so much money on these settlements that they finally realise they need to follow the Hippocratic oath just like doctors. 

    And yes. I agree just like I said don’t lump all vaccine hesitant people together. Don’t lump every medical business into one. 


    unfortunately, those settlements have been small beans (relatively speaking) so far
    Hatorian
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    tom_g said:
    Hatorian said:
    tom_g said:
    https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/08/10/900854967/opioid-scandal-haunts-drug-companies-as-they-respond-to-pandemic

    I get it, I work in public health in West 'by God' Virginia - I just hope people doing good work (vaccine scientists) are not unfairly lumped in with others motivated exclusively by greed (C suite and marketing).
    I hope they lose so much money on these settlements that they finally realise they need to follow the Hippocratic oath just like doctors. 

    And yes. I agree just like I said don’t lump all vaccine hesitant people together. Don’t lump every medical business into one. 


    unfortunately, those settlements have been small beans (relatively speaking) so far
    Oh yea. 250,000 people dead. If I do the math that’s not a lot per person. Let alone the millions of lives ruined from years of addiction. 
  • Sackler family still has billions AFTER what has been the largest settlement. 
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    edited August 9
    Grr. Last point. 

    We all agree that unimpeded surveillance would limit and stop some foreign and domestic terrorist attacks. No?

    So we all in agreement to let the NSA listen to every one of our calls and read our emails?


  • JoshTheBlackJoshTheBlack Atlanta, GA
    Hatorian said:
    Grr. Last point. 

    We all agree that unimpeded surveillance would limit and stop some foreign and domestic terrorist attacks. No?

    So we all in agreement to let the NSA listen to every one of our calls and read our emails?


    That's a bit of a straw man.  Your likelihood of being affected by a terrorist attack is considerably lower (and different) than covid.

    Look, I don't think there should be a federal mandate.  While there has never been a federal mandate for vaccines before, there were over a dozen states that mandated smallpox vaccines, another dozen or so where local municipalities mandated it. The supreme court even upheld a mandate.

    I am 100% for businesses, should they so choose mandating vaccines for their employees and customers. 

    Just as you should make distinctions between the vaccine-hesitant and the anti-vax (disinfo spreaders, conspiracy theorists, hostile foreign actors and their agents), so should you make a distinction between the vaccines and the vaccine distributors. Does it suck that vaccinations are putting money into companies with terrible histories of human rights abuses? Absolutely.  Is that a reason to not get a vaccine? Absolutely not.  If anything, it's a reason to take the vaccines developed largely with public funds open source. 

    The MRNA vaccine can be built in a factory costing around $100k.  It can out out hundreds of millions of doses a year. If not for a lack of political will to step on pharmas pockets, we could have every person in the world vaccinated in 12-16 months. 

    The problem with allowing so many to remain unvaccinated because of personal freedom, is there are large numbers of people who have fallen victim to propaganda who are being killed or disabled.  Every day we haven't reached herd immunity is a day that the virus can mutate into one that is deadlier, more transmissible, or vaccine resistant. 

    Being a hostile keyboard warrior won't help though.  You are right about that.  The data shows that the person most likely to change someone's mind is someone they know. Friends, family, their PCP, clergy.  People who with compassion listen to their concerns, and help them address those concerns with real world facts, kindness, and understanding. 

    It's getting harder to do that with each passing day, because of how stubborn people are, and how much danger they have put people in. 

    Finally, the anger and resentment is a sign of care.  The opposite of love isn't hate.  It's indifference.  Which is an emotion I'm having a hard time fighting. 
    DeeHatorianTeresa from ConcordCretanBull
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    All great points sir. That’s why I like to hang with you on sundays. 

    I’ve made peace with what I’ve said and done. Was in real lockdown for 9 months in Singapore. I spent 2 months away from my family(not my choice to leave them), 14 days in a single hotel room without being able to leave. Spent 10 days in self-quarantine after getting it. Did all the forms and contact tracing. Answered all the calls and check ins. Scanned my phone for QR code’s at least a thousand times. I got my vaccine. I can sleep at night. That’s all that matters. I’m a freaking manager at a corporate telco. I’m not in a position to tell people they should get a vaccine.

  • JoshTheBlackJoshTheBlack Atlanta, GA
    edited August 10
    Hatorian said:
    All great points sir. That’s why I like to hang with you on sundays. 

    I’ve made peace with what I’ve said and done. Was in real lockdown for 9 months in Singapore. I spent 2 months away from my family(not my choice to leave them), 14 days in a single hotel room without being able to leave. Spent 10 days in self-quarantine after getting it. Did all the forms and contact tracing. Answered all the calls and check ins. Scanned my phone for QR code’s at least a thousand times. I got my vaccine. I can sleep at night. That’s all that matters. I’m a freaking manager at a corporate telco. I’m not in a position to tell people they should get a vaccine.

    We never did anything that drastic here. Not even close. 

    Edit: To be clear, here means Georgia. No contract tracing as far as I can tell.  Lockdowns were not enforced. Masking wasn't enforced. Quarantines not enforced.  Basically it was all honor system.
    Hatorian
  • Teresa from ConcordTeresa from Concord Concord, California
    Don’t be so hard on Georgia. You did get the slowpoke law. I’m jealous. 
    Hatorian
  • MrXMrX CO
    edited August 11
    Thankful to live in a sane place where the county board of health and the school district are requiring masks for everyone at schools (indoors) this year, in addition to other proactive measures to try to reduce the spread as much as possible (was just listening to the school board meeting where there was lots of informed discussion). And that our governor/legislature doesn't make such mandates illegal!
  • This will probably be an equally unpopular opinion as @Hatorian's, but I think proof of vaccination should be required to participate in public life (people with legitimate medical exemptions excepted).
    JoshTheBlack
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    @CretanBull This is currently an issue in Australia. Businesses are worried about the legal implications of them mandating jabs themselves, so they want government to mandate it. Federal government says it’s up to the businesses. Business goes to state governments, state governments say it’s up to the federal government. Fun times!
    CretanBull
  • Dee said:
    @CretanBull This is currently an issue in Australia. Businesses are worried about the legal implications of them mandating jabs themselves, so they want government to mandate it. Federal government says it’s up to the businesses. Business goes to state governments, state governments say it’s up to the federal government. Fun times!
    Yeah, I don't have any brainy ideas about implementation, I just want the peace of mind that if I go to the theatre to watch a movie I'm not getting a viral load from a selfish prick.  I also don't want mobs of unvaccinated people getting together and giving the virus a chance to mutate into a variant that side-steps our current vaccines. 
    Dee
  • This will probably be an equally unpopular opinion as @Hatorian's, but I think proof of vaccination should be required to participate in public life (people with legitimate medical exemptions excepted).
    I hadn't carried my card until recently.  Had it on my work desk, but, have started to see that some restaurants are asking for proof, so, I threw it in my wallet.
    CretanBull
  • This will probably be an equally unpopular opinion as @Hatorian's, but I think proof of vaccination should be required to participate in public life (people with legitimate medical exemptions excepted).

    Religious exemptions too?
  • Problem with religious exemption is many people who are not going to get the vaccine because they think it has microchips in them have already said they will just use the religious exemption if it’s mandated. So I imagine he’s only talking medical exemptions..
  • edited August 11
    Oh man I need to find my vaccine card as we may actually need it soon. 

    I'm ambivalent (the actual meaning, conflicted, not indifferent as it's so often used) about the federal gov't mandating vaccines. On the one hand, it's abundantly clear the vaccines are safe and effective and anyone choosing not to get vaccinated is actively causing more death and more virus variants. On the other hand, I am extremely skeptical of the government mandating types of health care with criminal penalties for failing to comply. Tuskegee ended in 1972. The government does not have a great track record of being equitable with health care, and if you squint just a little bit you can see the war on drugs as being a form of government mandated "health care." How did that go for us? And incidentally, Tuskegee is why I have a lot more sympathy for minority communities being vaccine hesitant than the white evangelical nutjobs. Hell, we learned that within the last few years there was an ICE doctor who was performing unnecessary hysterectomies on migrant women. It makes perfect sense to me that minority groups are distrustful of mandated government "health care."

    That being said, I hope that a combination of state and local government and private industry make it so frustrating to be unvaccinated that it will just stop being worth it for almost everyone. Require vaccines for being in basically every public space, stop allowing negative tests as well (obviously there would need to be some tracking system for medical exemptions). 

    As far as religious exemptions go, frankly, that can fuck right off. Any religious sect that dictates what sort of health care its members can receive is a cult and should be treated as such. The second your religion starts seriously impacting public safety is the second my tolerance for it ends. 
    HatorianJoshTheBlack
  • The US version of the vaccine card is heavily/easily counterfeited btw.
    JoshTheBlack
  • tom_g said:
    The US version of the vaccine card is heavily/easily counterfeited btw.
    Yeah it's awful. But at least making people take an extra step where they might get caught will cause more people to get the vaccine if it's easier than dealing with finding a card faker that isn't a scam (they got pulled from Amazon, ebay, etsy, red bubble, etc). 
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    @asmallcat I think people hear mandate and think it means some government official coming to your house and pinning you down to jab you. In Australia, we have mandatory immunisation for children unless they fit into a (very) narrow medical exemption category. I could be wrong, but I believe that not even religious exemptions are accepted anymore. Children must be fully immunised to attend child care centres or kindergartens (pre-school), and there are also government child benefit payments that parents don’t get - one of which is a child care subsidy worth thousands of dollars to a full time working parent. So they can choose not to immunise their child, but they miss out on a fair chunk of money and may not be able to enrol their kid anywhere.  

    We also have a government electronic health record that shows your immunisation status - I just got a message the other day after my second jab saying mine had been updated. So although I’m sure people could find a way to fake that, it’s not that easy for any random Covidiot to do. 
    Hatorianasmallcat
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