Coronavirus / COVID-19

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  • My problem with government mandated vaccines is I don't trust the government.  The government is largely incompetent in the best of times, and downright evil in the worst of times.  I'm 100% behind businesses mandating vaccines for employees and customers, but I really don't think government mandates will help, or are good.  Perhaps that's a result of me being fiercely anti-authoritarian.  (On the pol-compass I'm pretty close to the bottom.)

    Also, the evangelical christians are already calling this thing the mark of the beast.  The bible specifically mentions that "...no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark..."  Mandating vaccines at all, businesses or governments, is going to be met with fierce resistance among the evangelical radical right.  Government mandates would, in my estimation, be much more radicalizing than business mandates.  

    I think businesses should mandate vaccinations to be allowed entry, where possible, but not to conduct business.  You can buy groceries online, or on your phone.  Have them delivered to your car.  Other stores can do the same.  Wait for the movie to come out on streaming or VOD.  Tie to to case positivity rate.  Over 3%?  Vaccines required for entry.  If it drops below 3% and stays for more than 2 weeks, put the mandate on hold.  The point is to curb transmission, keep hospitalizations low, and deaths down.  The point is not to punish the propagandized.  This allows for those vaccinated to continue basically normal lives, and puts a burden on the unvaccinated.  Maybe that burden is high enough over time that they will reconsider.  Maybe its not.  Either way, I'm running out of empathy for them.
    Hatorian
  • JoshTheBlackJoshTheBlack Atlanta, GA
    edited August 2021
    Double post.
  • tom_g said:
    This will probably be an equally unpopular opinion as @Hatorian's, but I think proof of vaccination should be required to participate in public life (people with legitimate medical exemptions excepted).

    Religious exemptions too?
    I wasn't aware that this was even an issue.  Which religions are against vaccinations? I know of...is it the Jehovah's Witnesses?...who are against blood transfusions, are they also against vaccinations? 
  • tom_g said:
    This will probably be an equally unpopular opinion as @Hatorian's, but I think proof of vaccination should be required to participate in public life (people with legitimate medical exemptions excepted).

    Religious exemptions too?
    I wasn't aware that this was even an issue.  Which religions are against vaccinations? I know of...is it the Jehovah's Witnesses?...who are against blood transfusions, are they also against vaccinations? 
    Actually - the only objections I know of are at a local church level.
  • tom_g said:
    tom_g said:
    This will probably be an equally unpopular opinion as @Hatorian's, but I think proof of vaccination should be required to participate in public life (people with legitimate medical exemptions excepted).

    Religious exemptions too?
    I wasn't aware that this was even an issue.  Which religions are against vaccinations? I know of...is it the Jehovah's Witnesses?...who are against blood transfusions, are they also against vaccinations? 
    Actually - the only objections I know of are at a local church level.
    Ah, so it's just contrarian evangelical Christians with the whole "God will save us" routine and not an actual religious tenant?  If so, fuck 'em.
  • My problem with government mandated vaccines is I don't trust the government.  The government is largely incompetent in the best of times, and downright evil in the worst of times.  I'm 100% behind businesses mandating vaccines for employees and customers, but I really don't think government mandates will help, or are good.  Perhaps that's a result of me being fiercely anti-authoritarian.  (On the pol-compass I'm pretty close to the bottom.)


    I have to say, I find it extremely odd when people say they don't trust the government (which, in theory at least, exists to do the will of the people) but then trust business, when it has been shown time and again that corporations will happily kill people if they think the profit will be higher than the cost of the lawsuits (takata airbags, GM ignition switches, and climate change as extremely recent examples, not to mention the constant pollution, and when you go to countries with weak regulation it's shit like locking people in factories so that when there's a fire they all die). And the idea that government is largely incompetent is a creation of the deregulation spree that started with Reagan. Governments, both in the US and abroad, have accomplished incredible things. But yes, when agencies are wildly underfunded and kicked around as a political football, yeah, the service tends to get worse. 
    DeeCretanBull
  • Problem with governments is it’s filled with lobbyists. And even politicians with good intentions get sucked into the greed. 

    Problem with businesses is it’s all about stock price and short term wins. CEOs maybe have a year to show what their worth. They don’t think long term. 

    We really are sort of on our own when it comes to doing things in our best interest. 
    CretanBull
  • Dee said:
    @asmallcat I think people hear mandate and think it means some government official coming to your house and pinning you down to jab you. In Australia, we have mandatory immunisation for children unless they fit into a (very) narrow medical exemption category. I could be wrong, but I believe that not even religious exemptions are accepted anymore. Children must be fully immunised to attend child care centres or kindergartens (pre-school), and there are also government child benefit payments that parents don’t get - one of which is a child care subsidy worth thousands of dollars to a full time working parent. So they can choose not to immunise their child, but they miss out on a fair chunk of money and may not be able to enrol their kid anywhere.  

    We also have a government electronic health record that shows your immunisation status - I just got a message the other day after my second jab saying mine had been updated. So although I’m sure people could find a way to fake that, it’s not that easy for any random Covidiot to do. 
    While we here in the US certainly should have had more robust vaccine tracking, due to the vagaries of federalism the federal government can't really do much in terms of making vaccines mandatory besides either requiring them to enter federal facilities (something that wouldn't impact most people), requiring them to work for a federal agency (which they are basically doing now), or making it a federal crime to not be vaccinated. The federal government can't order schools or universities to require vaccines for attendance, as they fall under the purview of the state governments, and we have about 50% of the states that won't ever do it because now it's become a political issue (even though these exact states already require probably ~10 other vaccines for students). 

    FWIW it's become increasingly clear that giving so much power to the states in the US was a mistake. We would be much better served with a powerful federal government, killing the senate, and leaving to the states much smaller things, but that's a pipe dream. 
    DeeCretanBull
  • Hatorian said:
    Problem with governments is it’s filled with lobbyists. And even politicians with good intentions get sucked into the greed. 

    Problem with businesses is it’s all about stock price and short term wins. CEOs maybe have a year to show what their worth. They don’t think long term. 

    We really are sort of on our own when it comes to doing things in our best interest. 
    It would be trivially easy (legally, not politically) to ban lobbying. And we can't be on our own to do things in our best interest, because what happens when my best interest is taking everything you own? 

    This doom and gloom the government will never be good attitude is basically a self-fulfilling prophecy. Especially when we've seen the US government make great social and scientific strides in the past, and we can currently see other governments doing well by their people. It's clearly possible. We just need to do it. 
    CretanBullDashEngine
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    edited August 2021
    Term limits
     Fix the money
    put incentives in their pay directly related to the benefit of society 

    just a few things that I see needed if we want a better government.

    this is the only Stat you need to know our government isn’t doing that good.

    appeoval rates for Congress are below 30% yet they have a 90% return rate.

    the game is rigged man. 

    Also governments tend to pull the “celebrity PR”

    I’m done being fooled by “good deeds”. Bill gates is a monster. Yes he has done good for countless people but it’s all a part of his plan to buy his way into heaven and cover up the HORRIBLE things he has done. 

    Same with governments. Good deeds don’t tend to outweigh the bad. 50% of our population lives paycheck to paycheck. If you cannot get out of your financial situation and you are stuck paying bills and credit on our loans then you are an indentured serf. You are only working for the land you RENT!

    Most of the great work done by governments was only AFTER people stood up. Things like Civil Rights. Unions. Climate change. Abortions. Etc. 

    Never met this proactive awesome government…

    asmallcatCretanBull
  • One of my favourite stand up specials of all time. The man is a legend. 

    George Carlin on why education sucks in America

  • Yeah I'm not gonna disagree that no government is even close to perfect, or that the US government is incredibly rigged (thanks first past the post!) but since the options tend to be fix the government you have or have a violent revolution, and there hasn't really been a violent revolution that has worked out well for the country in, like, a century, I don't know what the better solution is than try to fix what we have. 
    CretanBull
  • To get back on covid. Recent news says phizer is only 40% effective against Delta in terms of catching it.

    you cannot force people to take something for the benefit of society if it’s a 50/50 shot they are still going to get people killed. 

    Yes, its 99% effective against severe illness and death. But that’s only a reason to get it for yourself. 
  • Hatorian said:
    To get back on covid. Recent news says phizer is only 40% effective against Delta in terms of catching it.

    you cannot force people to take something for the benefit of society if it’s a 50/50 shot they are still going to get people killed. 

    Yes, its 99% effective against severe illness and death. But that’s only a reason to get it for yourself. 
    That's about on par with the flu vaccine, and we still recommend everyone get that to protect the vulnerable. 

    Plus, taking the Delta variants R value from 7 to 10 (where most estimated put it) to 3.5-5 will definitely save lives, so it's still going to save a lot of lives, especially when compared to the single-digit deaths in the US caused by the vaccines. And that assumes that people who are vaccinated are contagious for as long, which seems to not be the case, so it's probably reducing the R value even more than that. 

    And we force people to do stuff that saves lives less than 50% of the time all the time. I have to say "well, since this mandate will only save 10,000 people instead of 20,000 people, we probably shouldn't bother" is a bizarre take. 
    tom_gJoshTheBlackDeeCretanBull
  • Great point on how we recommend a flu vaccine. Thank you for making my case stronger. We don’t force that? People still die from the flu? It can still be spread. 

    Now I don’t want to compare it to the normal flu vaccine because I don’t want a million people jumping down my throat about how covid and flu are not the same.


  • Honestly dude you know that’s not what I’m saying. 

    I’m saying you have to give someone an option when it comes to medical things that are not guaranteed our close to it.

    I know the Nuremberg code is for medical experiments. Not vaccines. But it’s philosophy is the same. A person needs to volunteer.  
  • In my state (WV - USA), DTaP/DTP Td/Tdap, Polio, MMR, Varicella, and Hep B vaccinations are required before entry into public schools.

    When fully approved for all ages, COVID will get serious consideration.
    asmallcatDee
  • Hatorian said:

    I’m saying you have to give someone an option when it comes to medical things that are not guaranteed our close to it.

    I think this is where we disagree. The vaccines are essentially guaranteed to be safe and guaranteed to prevent thousands, or tens of thousands, of deaths, not just from not transmitting COVID but also from not overstraining the medical system causing overworked staff to make mistakes or taking up too much ICU space. And as I said, I'm not really for the government mandating the vaccines in any way with criminal penalties - I don't think that's a good road to start down. However I'm 100% fine with it being increasingly difficult to participate in society if you aren't vaccinated. The rest of society shouldn't have to tolerate typhoid Marys. 

    And the reason you can't do medical experiments on someone without their consent is that it could be dangerous in a way we don't know (although with modern techniques is extremely rare that something makes it to human trials that is severely dangerous, end even more rare that it makes it to large scale trials), not because people have some fundamental right to never have to do anything medical while still participating in society. And these vaccines have gone through the trials, so there's no experimentation left to be done as to safety, only as to efficacy, and it would have been impossible to test for the delta variant since it didn't exist. 

    So, no, when it's proven that something is safe, will save lives (not 100% of lives to be fair, but nothing does), and is trivial to get for the vast majority of people, yeah, I'm fine with not giving people the option as to whether or not to get it if they want to participate in society. We do this all the time! You wanna drive, you gotta get a license. You wanna fly, you gotta get screened. You wanna go eat at a restaurant, work in an office with a bunch of other people, or go to Disney World while a dangerous pandemic is on the loose? I'm fine with saying you gotta be vaccinated. 

    And the government IS requiring it for the military (and all federal employees IIRC). If you refuse it you'll probably get a less than honorable discharge from the military or be fired from your job. Is that unfair? 
    DeeCretanBull
  • ctom_g said:
    In my state (WV - USA), DTaP/DTP Td/Tdap, Polio, MMR, Varicella, and Hep B vaccinations are required before entry into public schools.

    When fully approved for all ages, COVID will get serious consideration.
    Cool. Kids can still get educated at home if their parents choose not to vaccinate them.
  • I believe that since we do not choose to be born. We have god given rights to Shelter, Food, Water and Jobs to pay for them. 

    As long as the government does not restrict these in anyway I will support the drive to vaccinate people but still won’t tell people to get them. I’m not a doctor and my 3 hours of real research I did is only good enough for myself. 

    It’s funny how we always say “you wouldn’t listen to Jenny McCarthy on medical advice”

    so shouldn’t that be the same for all of us? None of us here are nurses or doctors. Maybe we should stop acting like we’re experts on vaccines now. 


  • Currently just over 7% of WV kids are home schooled.

    Works for me.
  • asmallcat said:
    Hatorian said:

    I’m saying you have to give someone an option when it comes to medical things that are not guaranteed our close to it.

    I think this is where we disagree. The vaccines are essentially guaranteed to be safe and guaranteed to prevent thousands, or tens of thousands, of deaths, not just from not transmitting COVID but also from not overstraining the medical system causing overworked staff to make mistakes or taking up too much ICU space. And as I said, I'm not really for the government mandating the vaccines in any way with criminal penalties - I don't think that's a good road to start down. However I'm 100% fine with it being increasingly difficult to participate in society if you aren't vaccinated. The rest of society shouldn't have to tolerate typhoid Marys. 

    And the reason you can't do medical experiments on someone without their consent is that it could be dangerous in a way we don't know (although with modern techniques is extremely rare that something makes it to human trials that is severely dangerous, end even more rare that it makes it to large scale trials), not because people have some fundamental right to never have to do anything medical while still participating in society. And these vaccines have gone through the trials, so there's no experimentation left to be done as to safety, only as to efficacy, and it would have been impossible to test for the delta variant since it didn't exist. 

    So, no, when it's proven that something is safe, will save lives (not 100% of lives to be fair, but nothing does), and is trivial to get for the vast majority of people, yeah, I'm fine with not giving people the option as to whether or not to get it if they want to participate in society. We do this all the time! You wanna drive, you gotta get a license. You wanna fly, you gotta get screened. You wanna go eat at a restaurant, work in an office with a bunch of other people, or go to Disney World while a dangerous pandemic is on the loose? I'm fine with saying you gotta be vaccinated. 

    And the government IS requiring it for the military (and all federal employees IIRC). If you refuse it you'll probably get a less than honorable discharge from the military or be fired from your job. Is that unfair? 
    you do know what guaranteed means right? There not virtually guaranteed. 

    First of all. A guarantee has a backing. IE if something bad happens to you we will get you back. Funny enough the pharmas are exempt from lawsuits on vaccines!!! And good luck getting any funds from the vaccine injury budget. 

    Second. 1 in a 10million side effect seems small. But we’re talking 600mil does. 

    Are you god? Who’s to say those 6,000 people or whatever the math adds up to deserve to die for the rest of us? Let them make that choice. I want heroes not human shields…


  • Hatorian said:
    so shouldn’t that be the same for all of us? None of us here are nurses or doctors. Maybe we should stop acting like we’re experts on vaccines now. 

    But.....every* actual expert says to get vaccinated. I'm not asking people to listen to me. I don't think anyone here is. I'm asking them to listen to the experts. 

    *I'm sure there's some epidemiologist out there who has been saying that the vaccines are bad an/or COVID is no big deal (like the Dr. in Sweden who initially went for the "isolate the vulnerable, herd immunity for the rest" when COVID first started, although that didn't actually work very well and I think he admitted it), just like there are some climate scientists who claim climate change isn't real. When the number is north of 99% of experts agreeing on something, though, I'm fine saying it's everyone. 
    JoshTheBlack
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    edited August 2021
    And I firmly believe in businesses/organisations requiring vaccines for jobs that require them. Like the military. Pretty sure those military contracts are iron clad on vaccines and shots. Pretty sure you have to sign documents before you join that you could have to take experimental drugs. 


  • Look. I agree with everyone in regards to the benefit of society. 

    But the only evidence I need as to why this needs to be voluntary is this…

    https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/about/index.html

    its not 100% safe. The pharmas lobbied our government years ago and got them to subidise lawsuits through the government. 

    Since it’s not 100% safe. I cannot in good faith force someone to take it. I volunteered and I expect others to. That plain and simple. 

    I’m sorry. I’d rather be shot for desertion. 
  • I think we're closer to agreeing than we seem lol. 

    The government should not mandate vaccines with criminal or monetary penalties. Ever. I think forced medical care is far too easy to abuse, even if it starts with very good intentions.

    However, it's perfectly fine (and I think good) for schools to require vaccines, for jobs (gov't or otherwise) to require vaccines, for stores to require vaccines, venues, amusement parks, boats, trains, planes, etc. I think it's also fine for a government to require proof of vaccine for any non-citizen trying to enter the country. Agree? 
    HatorianJoshTheBlack
  • No disagreement there!
    asmallcat
  • And on cue…that righteous government at work…

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/rand-paul-discloses-16-months-030124977.html

    you can say bad apples. But I’m the senate it only takes 1 person to flip nationwide legislation. This sucks. 
  • CretanBullCretanBull Toronto
    edited August 2021
    Just a bit of clarity on the Pfizer 40% stat because I've seen it repeated a lot lately. That study came out of Israel, hasn't been peer-reviewed, they haven't released the full details about the study and the sample size was very small (a few hundred people). That aside, the same study also concluded that "the two-dose vaccine still works very well in preventing people from getting seriously sick, demonstrating 88% effectiveness against hospitalization and 91% effectiveness against severe illness" - so even if it is only outright preventing the Delta variant 40% of the time, it's still doing wonders in terms of preventing people from getting seriously ill and in keeping people out of the hospital.

    A similar study came out of Israel originally showed that the Pzifer vaccine was 64% effective vs the Delta variant, but the methodology of that study was called into question, it's not known if this new study used that methodology.

    Both of those studies are at odds with one done in the UK that showed Pfizer was 88% effective vs Delta (also no peer-reviewed).  I couldn't find the exact sample size, but it was much larger than the Israeli test group.  The Israeli study was done June 20th to July 17th, slightly less than a month, whereas the UK study was done over 7 months.
    Dee
  • I read that it’s 2 studies now. That’s why I posted it. Thought it was peer reviewed.
    CretanBull
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