Will this hurt #metoo

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  • Not accusing anyone of this, but this conversation reminded me of this video:


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  • FWIW- Famous comics just show up at that club to try out material all the time. The club literally may not have had an idea he was coming. There was a random Wednesday last year where Chris Rock, Seinfeld and Dave Chapelle were all workong other gigs and randomly showed up together at Comedy Cellar after hours. 
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    FWIW- Famous comics just show up at that club to try out material all the time. The club literally may not have had an idea he was coming. There was a random Wednesday last year where Chris Rock, Seinfeld and Dave Chapelle were all workong other gigs and randomly showed up together at Comedy Cellar after hours. 

    Yeah, he's essentially an independent contractor in that situation, and the people in the audience know that shit can happen or they can leave when it does. 
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    edited August 2018
    Shum said:
    Not accusing anyone of this, but this conversation reminded me of this video:



    I guess I’ll stop generalising about men when men generally stop letting this shit pass. 
    russkelly
  • NoelNoel Dallas, TX
    Dee said:
    Dee said:
    Dee said:
    Well, in the last 24 hours Louis CK did a surprise stand up performance and got a standing ovation, and Netflix announced another season of Master Of None with Aziz Ansari. That #metoo witch hunt is really ruining men’s lives... 
    I'd like to state for the record that I predicted this on a previous thread. Lol

    Master of None isn't even a good show.
    Every woman predicted this. We all know what we’re worth. 
    Ok... It gets better @Dee

    Two Women Describe Louis C.K.’s ‘Uncomfortable’ Comedy Cellar Set

    ... There was a rape whistle joke...

    http://www.vulture.com/2018/08/louis-ck-comedy-cellar-women-describe-rape-whistle-joke.html
    I started to read the comments and then just... ah, fuck. 

    I literally think of men the way I think of dogs these days. There are some individual ones I’m fond of and enjoy the company of, but as a group overall I find them frightening and I don’t want them anywhere near me. 
    Some of us are very good boys, housebroken and everything. #notalldogs
    Not me, I still urinate on the floor from time to time
  • HunkuleseHunkulese Québec, Canada
    Dee said:
    Shum said:
    Not accusing anyone of this, but this conversation reminded me of this video:



    I guess I’ll stop generalising about men when men generally stop letting this shit pass. 
    Generalizing is always a bad idea.

    No one ran it by me if it was okay to let Louis C.K. do a set.
    telephoneofmadness
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  • DeeDee Adelaide
    Hunkulese said:
    Dee said:
    Shum said:
    Not accusing anyone of this, but this conversation reminded me of this video:



    I guess I’ll stop generalising about men when men generally stop letting this shit pass. 
    Generalizing is always a bad idea.

    No one ran it by me if it was okay to let Louis C.K. do a set.
    I hate comparing things to racism, because it’s not the same, and white women certainly don’t have the same experiences people of colour do, but some of you seem to need an analogy, so here goes. 

    When a black person says “White people are basically all racist”, my first instinct is to feel a bit hurt and protest that I personally am not racist. But I don’t. Because in that black person’s lived experience, far more white people are racist than aren’t. I can understand that they’re not talking about me personally, or me specifically, they’re talking about white people in general, in their experience. And even though I like to think I’m not racist, I will still usually say nothing when my Mum starts rambling on about “black gangs in Melbourne” because I can’t be arsed arguing with her and I just end up getting angry. So in my own way, I’m still part of the race problem - I’m still letting some things slide because it’s easier for me, and because I have that privilege. 

    So I get it. I get that it’s tiresome and insulting when you’re a male and some chick is all “yes all men” or words to that effect. But it doesn’t mean all men are rapists, or all men are violent, or all men are aggressive or all men are arseholes. It means that while you might not treat women badly (you = general male), you have a mate who does and you never say anything to him about it because it’s easier not to. Or you pressured a girl into sex when you were young and deep down you knew she didn’t want to but you whined and cajoled until she gave in and that’s okay because you got what you wanted and you never stopped to think about how uncomfortable she might have been, and it’s not rape because she said yes. Or you think a little old lady getting raped by a burglar in her house is tragic, but secretly you think that girl who got shitfaced in a club and then raped in an alley was just asking for trouble. Or Louis CK asked permission to masturbate in front of those women and they could have just said no so what’s everyone going on about. Or you’ve walked two feet behind a woman at night and been completely oblivious to the fact that you scared the shit out of her. And when some female friend once tried to tell you that you should never walk behind women at night you scoffed and called her a drama queen because you’re harmless and would never hurt a woman. Or etc. etc. So yes. Yes all men. And if you think it’s tiresome, imagine how utterly exhausting it is to be a woman. 

    Having said that, I’ve seen plenty of instances here on BM of men who stand up and want to do better, and I want to believe they actually do that in real life too. That’s why I stick around here. It’s a hopeful place. Mostly. 


    Frakkin TShumgguenotamyja89JaimieTA_Ron_HubbardAlkaid13LordByphoenyx1023russkelly
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  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited August 2018
    (Note: there's an edit at the end about how I realize women might be responsible for this video's creation, but I don't feel like rewriting the whole thing, and the artistic criticism still stands.)

    And while we're on the subject, holy shit, that video Shum shared. We can't even vent without being made fun of in a really lame video (the chorus was painfully literal) with great production values and women singing it, of course, because men still are the more powerful sex with the money, and women still need money and will sell out for it. What a piece of work. I had to turn it off, and I'm usually very open-minded about comedy. The meta-narrative of its creation was just really, really disgusting. Would it have worked better if it were a bunch of men in women's clothes? Nixing the female power singing angle in whatever capacity would have certainly been more artistic and less patronizing and preachy. And cruel. Motherfuckers, power singing is one of the few powers we've carved out for ourselves.

    I know there are gross things all over the internet. That video certainly wasn't making the rounds in my circles, and I'm sad to be made aware of it. It's like dipping into /r/The_Donald... Gotta shower now.

    Edit: I see it's from a popular show, aired on TV(?) and possibly written by women. That just makes me disgusted in a different way. /r/The_Donald analogy is even more apropos. Thanks, ladies or men, for normalizing this criticism without inspiring any complex thinking about how society got here, and cashing in while you do it, you lazy fuckers. Congratulations: more fodder for people to belittle and hate women.
  • JaimieT said:
    Edit: I see it's from a popular show, aired on TV(?) and possibly written by women. That just makes me disgusted in a different way. /r/The_Donald analogy is even more apropos. Thanks, ladies or men, for normalizing this criticism without inspiring any complex thinking about how society got here, and cashing in while you do it, you lazy fuckers. Congratulations: more fodder for people to belittle and hate women.
    "Crazy Ex-Girlfriend ... was created by Rachel Bloom and Aline Brosh McKenna, and stars Bloom in the lead role."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Ex-Girlfriend_(TV_series)
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited August 2018
    JaimieT said:
    Edit: I see it's from a popular show, aired on TV(?) and possibly written by women. That just makes me disgusted in a different way. /r/The_Donald analogy is even more apropos. Thanks, ladies or men, for normalizing this criticism without inspiring any complex thinking about how society got here, and cashing in while you do it, you lazy fuckers. Congratulations: more fodder for people to belittle and hate women.
    "Crazy Ex-Girlfriend ... was created by Rachel Bloom and Aline Brosh McKenna, and stars Bloom in the lead role."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Ex-Girlfriend_(TV_series)

    I saw that. Those are the showrunners, you don't know who's in the writer's room. (Unless you do?) Hence "possibly." And that's not me trying to say men wrote this, that's me saying I literally don't know who wrote it.

    You do know my criticism still stands even if women wrote this, right? I'm confused since you didn't actually say anything in your "reply." You just pointed out something I'd already acknowledged? Are you annoyed I got there first?
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    So I can just shut this down -- WRITTEN BY MEN.

    "Show song writers Adam Schlesinger and Jack Dolgen provided musical accompaniment."

    http://cxg.wikia.com/wiki/Let's_Generalize_About_Men
  • @JaimieT ;  Sorry Jaime.   I really wasn't trying to post that video as a rebuttal to anything said in this thread.  I was jumping off of Aron's comment to share something I found funny (The Season 3 soundtrack came out recently so it's been on my mind alot), but in hindsight it's obvious that this particular conversation is the worst possible context for this video.  I quite enjoy reading the epic rants on these forums and am very sorry if I derailed any venting.

    Just to provide a little context, crazy ex girlfriend started out as a more typical musical comedy with a quirky lead, but over the seasons it has turned into a fairly nuanced look at Mental Illness and personality disorders.  The lead girl, Rebecca, is left at the alter at the end of Season 2 and first half of Season Three looks at the many unhealthy ways she deals with this, which eventually leads to a suicide attempt.  The song I posted is in the context of Rebecca blaming everyone but herself for her issues as a way to avoid getting the help she desperately needs.
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited August 2018
    Shum said:
    @JaimieT ;  Sorry Jaime.   I really wasn't trying to post that video as a rebuttal to anything said in this thread.  I was jumping off of Aron's comment to share something I found funny (The Season 3 soundtrack came out recently so it's been on my mind alot), but in hindsight it's obvious that this particular conversation is the worst possible context for this video.  I quite enjoy reading the epic rants on these forums and am very sorry if I derailed any venting.

    Just to provide a little context, crazy ex girlfriend started out as a more typical musical comedy with a quirky lead, but over the seasons it has turned into a fairly nuanced look at Mental Illness and personality disorders.  The lead girl, Rebecca, is left at the alter at the end of Season 2 and first half of Season Three looks at the many unhealthy ways she deals with this, which eventually leads to a suicide attempt.  The song I posted is in the context of Rebecca blaming everyone but herself for her issues as a way to avoid getting the help she desperately needs.

    This is the only possible thing that would have made me feel bad about that rant, which is why I didn't tag you. The "my circles" was a cheap shot, because the video pissed me off. Also I wrote "my circles" before I realized it was from that show, which one of my best friends really loves and it gets recommended to me a lot. So I'm not surprised the show has its merits. But at first I thought Satan made the video or something, I didn't know. Thanks for understanding how the video is... a little annoying. I hate lazy art. It does seem like it does some of the gentle provocation that comedy is best at doing in the context of the show's story.
    Shum
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    edited August 2018
    So I'm glad were having this discussion. First, a few statements of facts as I see them: Bald Move is not a hub of discussion for social justice. Bald Move agrees with and supports the goals of social justice, specifically equality for everyone. Bald Move is also two middle aged white guys with a pretty bro-y veneer.

    That latter is essentially our honey pot in which we attract other young to middle aged men, lure them in, and attempt re-education. :) However, I've often noted there is friction where these boundaries collide.

    It is common place in social justice circles to make sweeping blanket statements like "all white people are racist" when what they really mean is "all white people benefit from systemic racism, and to the extent they are unaware or apathetic, directly support this system of oppression." This is a social justice 300-level statement, especially since the average white person walks around with a working definition of racism being burning crosses in yards and using the n-word. The 300-level statement requires 1) an understanding of systemic racism, 2) how systemic racism manifests itself in society, 3) an understanding of how our own participation in society perpetuates that, 4) buying into all of these concepts once understood, and if you're a white person, 5) fairly thick skin. Maybe not as thick as a person of color's skin. But pretty thick. If you want to see perceived levels of thinnedskinedness on display, watch what happens in an online feminist space when a black woman challenges her white sisters on their privilege. Or how even fairly inter-sectional spaces deal with able-ist critiques. Nobody who sees themselves as a good person is born receptive to the idea that they might actually be the baddies. No one's knee jerk reaction is to see nuance and how they aren't necessarily being called out or evaluate the relative merits of the call out. 

    The utility of statements like "all white people are racists" is manifest. It's a shorthand to sum up three paragraphs worth of assumptions to then build on a pre-existing understanding rather than manufacture one from whole cloth each time you want to discuss race. It's useful to vent. It expresses anger and hurt and triggers others in the group to soothe and heal, which is a vital human bonding exercise. 

    However, I feel the best use of myself as an ally is trying to pitch social justice to my peer group at a 100-level, because it's a currently under served group in much need of education. I have an accurate awareness of how I have shifted my views from an ignorant fundamentalist reactionary white guy to where I am now, which is mostly together, I suppose? But I know things that aided my understanding and things that set my understanding back, and my goal is to deliver as much of the boons and as few of setbacks as I can in my discourse with this community. 

    White fragility is a real thing. So is male fragility. What it actually is; human fragility. Men, specifically white men, are at the top of the heap in this point in space time. But I refuse to believe if the balls bounced differently and the world happened to be run by, say, Asian women, that it would be a perfect paradise. The oppression would have a difference in targets and character, but there would absolutely still be oppression. Everyone fears rejection from a group they identify with. That group could be gamers, or it could be feminists, it could be Star Wars fans, or it could be "the set of decent people in the world." There is this odd dichotomy I see in social justice spaces that simultaneously decry men's detachment from empathy but then say "toughen up! suck it up!" when they have what are quite natural reactions to criticism. I understand why this is. You can't have men from the 100-classes wasting people's time and being offensive to people in the 300-level classes. It's why /r/gamerghazi, a pop-culture / gaming social justice community I spend a lot of time in has a thread called "Concerning White Fragility" pinned to the top of it's discussion. It weeds out a lot of people who aren't ready to engage with the material at this level. 

    I fully endorse everything that posted top level comment says. But I realize a lot of otherwise decent people are not going to make it past the first paragraph without going "fuck this." I don't want Bald Move forums to be that kind of place. Any new understanding takes a progression. A couch to 5k program is not a paper that says, "You're fat and out of shape. Go out and run, fatass." It's a program that gradually develops your muscles, cardio, and endurance to be able to eventually run a 5k.  I've said on past threads that I think human progress is a pendulum, that there are corrections, over corrections, balance, and then more corrections and over corrections as we bump along towards progress. On a macro level, I absolutely believe this to be true. But within circles of friends I'd hope we can agree that the best policy is to try to smooth those permutations out as best we can and offer hands up the pyramid of progress rather than a boot to the face and with a "die, shitlord!"

    I'm not going to make rules about what people can and cannot say. I'd always err on siding with people who are oppressed over people who have privilege. But I guess I'm asking for us who know and do better to always assume good faith and avoid using language that will stumble someone who is at an early level of their understanding. Hearing women talk about their lived experiences is incredibly valuable. But I don't know that this is the appropriate space to "vent". People who are venting say shit that is unfair and hurtful. And there are certainly plenty of spaces and outlets for venting that are safe and understanding. 

    "All white people are racist" or "all men are sexist" is a perfectly accurate statement to make, but I'm not sure it's an appropriate statement to make in this space. You can express that sentiment, but at a 100-class level where you explain the concepts and terms and with awareness of how people may react as they're being flushed from their The Matrix pods. It hurts their eyes because they've never used them, etc. Negatively comparing any group of human beings to animals, is offensive on the face of it. If you're doing that, I'd make sure the target of the comparison is truly and universally vile, or you explain how the target can exempt themselves from being lumped into the comparison. The follow up commentary by Dee and Angie above in response to the dogs comparison is a good example of what I feel should have been the first level of expression.

    Yes, this is exhausting. This is also why I call on all men of Bald Move with their heads at least half way pulled out of their asses to be proactive in helping other men, including on this forum, understand these issues so that the burden of work is not exclusively carried out by the women. Let us productively challenge each other, support each other, and save the weeding out for people who are clearly acting in bad faith and sowing discord.

    I'm now going to shut up and see what you all have to say about this over the weekend. I appreciate any critiques or viewpoints, as I have much to learn as well.


    ShumKingKobragguenotLordByNoelCecilyDeeAnnelle
  • JaimieT said:
    This is the only possible thing that would have made me feel bad about that rant, which is why I didn't tag you. The "my circles" was a cheap shot, because the video pissed me off. Also I wrote "my circles" before I realized it was from that show, which one of my best friends really loves and it gets recommended to me a lot. So I'm not surprised the show has its merits. But at first I thought Satan made the video or something, I didn't know. Thanks for understanding how the video is... a little annoying. I hate lazy art. It does seem like it does some of the gentle provocation that comedy is best at doing in the context of the show's story.
    Well if you were planning on watching the show, I just spoiled the crap out of it, so sorry about that, haha.
    JaimieTDee
  • JaimieT said:
    So I can just shut this down -- WRITTEN BY MEN.

    "Show song writers Adam Schlesinger and Jack Dolgen provided musical accompaniment."

    http://cxg.wikia.com/wiki/Let's_Generalize_About_Men

    Additional Information for:

    LET'S GENERALIZE ABOUT MEN
    Writer(s): ALINE MCKENNA, ADAM SCHLESINGER, JACK DOLGEN, RACHEL BLOOM
    HFA Song Code: LVBUGB

    From:
    https://secure.harryfox.com/songfile/public/publicsearch.do
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited August 2018
    JaimieT said:
    So I can just shut this down -- WRITTEN BY MEN.

    "Show song writers Adam Schlesinger and Jack Dolgen provided musical accompaniment."

    http://cxg.wikia.com/wiki/Let's_Generalize_About_Men

    Additional Information for:

    LET'S GENERALIZE ABOUT MEN
    Writer(s): ALINE MCKENNA, ADAM SCHLESINGER, JACK DOLGEN, RACHEL BLOOM
    HFA Song Code: LVBUGB

    From:
    https://secure.harryfox.com/songfile/public/publicsearch.do

    I'm not responding to you until you actually tell me what you're trying to say that's different from what I've said. Otherwise it's like "dance monkey dance" over here. Where's the disconnect for you?
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    @A_Ron_Hubbard - Safe spaces here definitely seem off the table because right now it's like women are another feature of the forum where, occasionally, if men time it right, they can catch women talking to each other then come in and let off some of steam by pointing out the areas we aren't making 100% logical sense, ignoring the fact that we are often using shorthand or we could make 100% logical sense if given the chance or if asked respectfully. This isn't a safe space, it's another form of entertainment, a perk.
  • JaimieT said:
    I'm not responding to you until you actually tell me what you're trying to say that's different from what I've said. Otherwise it's like "dance monkey dance" over here. Where's the disconnect for you?
    I posted the names of the songwriters of "Let's Generalize About Men" because there was uncertainty about who wrote it. It was written by 2 women (the creators of Crazy Ex-Girlfriend) and 2 men.
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    @JaimieT Are they ignoring or are they ignorant? What you are calling an entertainment perk I see as a chance for education. But no, I don't suppose this is a safe space, in that people shouldn't feel like they can use shorthand or illogical statements and expect not to have their shorthand or illogical statements questioned or challenged in a way that conforms to forum rules. The very concept of a safe space to a privileged person is silly, and requires engagement and explanation if the goal is understanding and education.

    That doesn't mean people can be rude and dismissive of others lived experiences, either.
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    JaimieT said:
    I'm not responding to you until you actually tell me what you're trying to say that's different from what I've said. Otherwise it's like "dance monkey dance" over here. Where's the disconnect for you?
    I posted the names of the songwriters of "Let's Generalize About Men" because there was uncertainty about who wrote it. It was written by 2 women (the creators of Crazy Ex-Girlfriend) and 2 men.

    Great! Thanks for clarifying.

    1. In writer's rooms, the showrunners have a writing credit for everything that goes out the door. However, individual episodes or scenes or songs are farmed out to staff writers, or proposed by staff writers, who do the actual writing. What you are seeing as a "written by" credit is more accurately a "responsible for and can win an Emmy for" credit, not a "created by" credit. I think it's safe to say that, as with my source, the primary creation of this song was by men.
    2. All my points about the problematic nature of this song out of context still stand regardless of the writers. It's like you're nitpicking my spelling. After I've acknowledged there might be spelling errors.
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    @JaimieT Are they ignoring or are they ignorant? What you are calling an entertainment perk I see as a chance for education. But no, I don't suppose this is a safe space, in that people shouldn't feel like they can use shorthand or illogical statements and expect not to have their shorthand or illogical statements questioned or challenged in a way that conforms to forum rules. The very concept of a safe space to a privileged person is silly, and requires engagement and explanation if the goal is understanding and education.

    That doesn't mean people can be rude and dismissive of others lived experiences, either.

    Yes, they're ignorant. "Ignoring" is over personalizing it.
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    JaimieT said:
    JaimieT said:
    I'm not responding to you until you actually tell me what you're trying to say that's different from what I've said. Otherwise it's like "dance monkey dance" over here. Where's the disconnect for you?
    I posted the names of the songwriters of "Let's Generalize About Men" because there was uncertainty about who wrote it. It was written by 2 women (the creators of Crazy Ex-Girlfriend) and 2 men.

    Great! Thanks for clarifying.

    1. In writer's rooms, the showrunners have a writing credit for everything that goes out the door. However, individual episodes or scenes or songs are farmed out to staff writers, or proposed by staff writers, who do the actual writing. What you are seeing as a "written by" credit is more accurately a "responsible for and can win an Emmy for" credit, not a "created by" credit. I think it's safe to say that, as with my source, the primary creation of this song was by men.
    2. All my points about the problematic nature of this song out of context still stand regardless of the writers. It's like you're nitpicking my spelling. After I've acknowledged there might be spelling errors.
    It's also possible for women to be involved in the creation of problematic content. A prime strategy of a minority trying to integrate themselves in a space dominated by a majority group is to buy into the majority point of view to prove that they're one of the team. For example, women trying to pass as "cool" and "funny" in a writers room dominated by men. Which is virtually every writers room, ever.
    JaimieTtelephoneofmadness
  • JaimieT said:
    Dee said:
    Dee said:
    Dee said:
    Well, in the last 24 hours Louis CK did a surprise stand up performance and got a standing ovation, and Netflix announced another season of Master Of None with Aziz Ansari. That #metoo witch hunt is really ruining men’s lives... 
    I'd like to state for the record that I predicted this on a previous thread. Lol

    Master of None isn't even a good show.
    Every woman predicted this. We all know what we’re worth. 
    Ok... It gets better @Dee

    Two Women Describe Louis C.K.’s ‘Uncomfortable’ Comedy Cellar Set

    ... There was a rape whistle joke...

    http://www.vulture.com/2018/08/louis-ck-comedy-cellar-women-describe-rape-whistle-joke.html
    I started to read the comments and then just... ah, fuck. 

    I literally think of men the way I think of dogs these days. There are some individual ones I’m fond of and enjoy the company of, but as a group overall I find them frightening and I don’t want them anywhere near me. 

    When I realized I was gay, there was this whole ball of fear and worry in my head I could just... toss away. It was really nice. Some of that was directly related to attraction, like, "Oh I only need to be friends with men, I can totally just be friends with men," but some of it wasn't, like domestic violence statistics.
    For some reason this statement hit me because I’d love to rebut it, but it is just factually correct. I’m sure being a gay woman has other challenges unique to that circumstance, but it is safer and that makes me sad. Not because being a gay woman is a bad or sad thing, hey whatever floats your boat, but because my gender is dangerous and that isn’t a comfortable thing.

    Thanks for sharing this reality-check.
    JaimieT
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