U.S. Politics Vol. 7: A Dream of 2020

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Comments

  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Alkaid13 said:
    Although I almost want to make a new thread just so I can call it: Vol. 8 The Last Thread (On the Forums). 

    Do ittttttttt
    FlukesJoshTheBlack
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Is anyone watching this?
  • FlukesFlukes Calgary, Canada
    JaimieT said:
    Is anyone watching this?
    I'm popping my head in between tasks today.
    JaimieT
  • EVERYONE watched watergate hearings - too few will watch in 2019 . . . Game Show Network reruns are too compelling.
    JaimieT
  • I watched until about 1:30, then I had to leave for a doctors appt.  Picked it back up around 3pm.  Most of this has been covered to death already, however there was some new info on a phone call between Trump and Sondland taking place the day after the Zelensky call where Trump made it clear he cares more about the investigations into the Bidens than he does about Ukraine.

    The whole thing is disgraceful.  

    As for a new thread, how about Vol 8:  A Dream of Impeachment?
  • FlukesFlukes Calgary, Canada
    So, the argument isn't that Trump didn't use his position to ask for investigations into his political rival - it's that it didn't work?

    Bold strategy Cotton.
    CretanBull
  • MrXMrX CO
    edited November 2019
    Dr. Fiona Hill rules. That is all.
    tom_gCretanBullJaimieTcdriveGredalBeeblacksunrise7
  • LordByLordBy Utah
    edited November 2019
    I think the GOP argument is:
    - Fake news the whistleblower and Schiff made it all up, never happened. Expose the whistleblower!
    - It happened, but read the transcript, there has never been a more perfect call in the history of the world! Witch-hunt!
    - No Quid Pro Quo, no problem!
    - All secondhand info so you got nothing and we won’t let you talk to any firsthand witnesses!
    - Okay, but Quid Pro Quo happens all the time so no problem!
    - Attempted Quit Pro Quo is no problem!
    - You can’t prove intent and they’re too disorganized to pull it off!
    - What about Biden/Obama/Clinton!?!
    - Okay he did it and it’s not good, but it’s not impeachable. Attempted coup!

    The slandering of some of these fine witnesses is repugnant.
    Travis
  • The Republican argument is always exactly the same, it's "fuck you". We can get surprised every time they contradict themselves and show what hypocrites they are and stomp around shouting have you no decency SIR but it's always going to be the same thing. We should not be trying to convince Republicans that they are bad and should change their ways, we should be convincing everybody else that these people should not be in positions of power.
    CretanBullTravisblacksunrise7
  • I’m sick of the talking point that the Democrats are trying to overturn the election. It’s not as if those who voted for Clinton in 2016 would consider President Mike Pence, duly elected via the Electoral College on the GOP ticket, to be a Democratic victory.
    CretanBullTravis
  • Is Devin Nunes gonna get exposed through this whole Ukraine thing?
    Travis
  • I'm so glad I learned about "OK Boomer" just in time to have the perfect articulation for my feelings about this Trump aside.

  • I have no idea how this guy still has supporters. It’s absolutely embarrassing as an American living abroad trying to explain why he is president. This is so fucked. Especially coming from a conservative. Just know that when you see your payroll cheque and see the tax deductions it’s going to his Golf habit....

    JaimieTTravis
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Because he's a white bro, and he seems to know about money. I think it's just this primal thing like that, for most of the voters. Also fear of Hillary after he got traction, and he was the "only" alternative. I really don't see him getting elected if we can put up a white bro too.
    HatorianTravis
  • giardinellogiardinello Long Island, NY
    edited November 2019
    JaimieT said:
    Because he's a white bro, and he seems to know about money. I think it's just this primal thing like that, for most of the voters. Also fear of Hillary after he got traction, and he was the "only" alternative. I really don't see him getting elected if we can put up a white bro too.
    I do agree with you Jaimie, but I think the problem is deeper than that. There's still 30-40% of the American population that blindly supports him. At this point, it's not a political party, it's a cult. MAGA is cult of personality, not any kind of political ideology. 

    We need to make sure voter turn out is through the roof for 2020. We already know the Russians are engaged in election interference already and the Senate hasn't even brought the election security bills to the floor for a vote. Plus, Trump is going to do whatever he has to do to remain in power. We all know about the Ukraine scandal, but who knows how much we don't know about his corruption. He knows if he loses there's a significant chance he'll be prosecuted, which is what worries me the most. He's dangerous as it is, but add desperation into the mix, and it could get very ugly, very quickly. 

    Edit: formatting
    Deeblacksunrise7Travis
  • Trump still has supporters for a number of reasons and most of them can’t be countered by just nominating a Joe Biden type:
    1. A non-insignificant number of Trump supporters are racists, I don’t know if it’s a majority or like 10% but the fact remains that racism is alive and well in this country and most racists are Trump supporters for obvious reasons. The JB type can’t really counter this because despite his faults, JB isn’t a super racist who’s going to throw kids in cages and that’s a feature for these types not a bug. 
    2. He’s a Republican, partisanship has rarely been higher than it is right now and even if Republican voters disagree with Trump on a personal level he more or less supports the basic Republican agenda. He lowers taxes on rich people, he appoints conservative judges, he cracks down on abortion and lgbt rights and immigration and generally is super into giving white Christians more power. It doesn’t really matter to these people if a Joe Biden type were running because Joe Biden is a Democrat at the end of the day and Democrats and liberalism in general are the enemy and must be defeated at all costs, even by cheating an election. 
    3. Fox News is one of the most affective state media brainwashing orgs in existence. If the only news you get in your life is from FN, and studies suggest that this is true for a lot of people, then you live in an alternate reality where Trump has done nothing wrong and you’ll never be presented with facts to the otherwise. The JB type can’t counter this one either really, these people have been so radicalized that they frequently vote against their own self-interest and it will require a long sustained effort to discredit FN as an organization in order to deprogram these people. 
    4. The economy is good, we haven’t started any major new wars, there hasn’t been a famine or a major terrorist attack and generally most (usually white, male) people have not had their lives altered all that much since the Obama era so to those people Trump doesn’t seem all that bad. Now these are the people a JB type actually could appeal to because Trump has over the course of his presidency done several things to upset the general peace and prosperity of the US and it’s easy for a JB type to make the case that things will continue to flow in an orderly fashion with them at the helm minus all the crazy tweeting. 
    DeeTravis
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited November 2019
    @giardinello Well yes, I think terrible rhetoric on the left entrenched his supporters. Not going to be a popular opinion though...

    At that point it's definitely not that simple, but I think the initial attraction to Trump was extremely simple because that's how people are.
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    THE IMPEACHMENT REPORT HATH BEEN RELEASED!
    https://intelligence.house.gov/report/

  • tom_g said:
    Is Devin Nunes gonna get exposed through this whole Ukraine thing?
    I should have said, 

    Devin Nunes is gonna get exposed through this whole Ukraine thing. 
    Travis
  • TravisTravis CA
    edited December 2019
    @Alkaid13 my question about #4 is, is the economy really so wonderful? Sure, unemployment may be low and the market may be strong, but to my knowledge wages aren't even keeping up with inflation and a big part of the reason the market is so strong is because we wrote a $1.5 trillion check from "the future" to strengthen corporations. Intuitively, though without numbers to back it, it seems pretty clear that the economy is more top heavy than ever. I keep hearing that he's running the economy so well, and granted I'm not tracking this deeply and leave plenty of room to be wrong, but I feel like it's a "are we SURE the economy is so wonderful?" type of thing.

  • If anyone hasn't seen this yet, someone had people in the UK guess how much basic medical costs are in the US to show what a bad idea it would be to let US companies privatize the NHS. It is genuinely staggering how broken our healthcare system is.


    TravisCretanBull
  • LordByLordBy Utah
    edited December 2019
    If anyone hasn't seen this yet, someone had people in the UK guess how much basic medical costs are in the US to show what a bad idea it would be to let US companies privatize the NHS. It is genuinely staggering how broken our healthcare system is.


    Healthcare in the US is a success of capitalism and a failure for society. When the incentives are to maximize visits, diagnostic tests, procedures, devices, medications, etc., to all people who can afford them while minimizing care for those who can’t; it’s ignorant to be surprised when the system optimizes over time to follow those incentives.

    Few make little money in the system from people who are in good health (unless they’re forced to pay into a system they’re not really using), so there is no real incentive to optimize for that.

    The free market is just not equipped to handle healthcare. It’s structurally not compatible with the desired outcomes.
    TravisJaimieT
  • LordBy said:
     it’s ignorant to be surprised when the system optimizes over time to follow those incentives.


    I mean the point is Europeans are surprised when they hear about what a nightmare our system is, I don't think they're doing an in depth economic analysis here. I also don't think very many Americans realize how close to bankruptcy they are, even people with "good" insurance. Why the system is broken isn't in doubt here, it's the baffling reluctance we have to do anything about it and the way we've been conditioned as a society to consider something that other countries take for granted as an impossibility.
    Dee
  • DeeDee Adelaide

    Why the system is broken isn't in doubt here, it's the baffling reluctance we have to do anything about it and the way we've been conditioned as a society to consider something that other countries take for granted as an impossibility. 
    Or as socialism. 
    bizmarkiefader
  • LordBy said:


    Healthcare in the US is a success of capitalism and a failure for society. 
    This is the perfect button to put on it. Absolutely perfect.
    JaimieT
  • Another thing that drives me absolutely bat shit that keeps coming up in Bloombergs 900 ads I see every night, there's this constant insistence that medicare for all is bad because some people like their health insurance and should have the option to keep it (this is insisted on by all of the candidates except Bernie and sometimes Warren). Who in the fuck "likes" their health insurance? The only thing anyone likes about it is that they pay for medical costs. If that wasn't a concern anymore I don't think anybody is going to miss finding out 2/3 of their hospital stay was "out of network" for some reason and there's nothing they could have done about it so now they owe 90 grand. Find me the person who LIKES having armies of blood sucking middle managers scouring over their costs looking for ways to deny paying for your medical bills. The only reason they're able to constantly manufacture polls about how people actually like health insurance is because they frame it as having it vs not having it or having a worse plan.
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    @bizmarkiefader They don’t like their health cover, they like their doctor. Republicans and moderate Democrats are either implying or outright lying that with universal healthcare people won’t be able to choose their doctor. 
    bizmarkiefader
  • Dee said:
    @bizmarkiefader They don’t like their health cover, they like their doctor. Republicans and moderate Democrats are either implying or outright lying that with universal healthcare people won’t be able to choose their doctor. 
    They really do love to conflate these things together. I mainly bring it up because in that specific Bloomberg ad I see constantly now there is a line that "anyone who wants insurance can get it, anyone who likes theirs can keep it" and every time I hear that line I start twitching.
  • FlukesFlukes Calgary, Canada
    This sort of reminds me of something that's happening here. The provincial government removed a cap on utility costs after "extensive consultation with industry stakeholders and consumers."

    You mean to tell me that you found consumers that said more than anything else, they'd like to pay MORE for electricity? Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.
    bizmarkiefaderDeeJaimieT
This discussion has been closed.