Star Wars Episode IX The Rise of Skywalker *SPOILER DISCUSSION*

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  • edited December 2019
    Freddy said:
    A. Ron in the spoiler review:

    "Someone tell the ground base shield system on Hoth that you can't power shields, IN ATMOSPHEEERE!!!!!! WHAT?!  C'MON!"

    @38:10



    With all this being said, would it be alright if I start another spoiler thread strictly for things people liked about the movie? So many of them for me, and I feel like they will just get lost in the sea of hate/love/argument comments.
    @Freddy Please do, I would enjoy a Star Wars Episode 9 positivity thread. 
    adampaszA_Ron_HubbardMurderbear
  • rkcrawf said:
    @CretanBull we already knew the Force could exist in anyone. We never thought all the Jedi we’ve seen were all related. The inconsistent and painful midichlorian bs, Shmi’s virgin birth, etc. set the stage. I never thought that Rey HAD to be from one of those families, but she could be. Luke and Leia didn’t have to be related. Neither did Luke and Vader. But it’s the Skywalker Saga and that’s the story George started telling.

    Its funny bc I think we both like SW but for different reasons. I don’t see Kylo’s Vader arc ending until Rise. Sure, he took off the mask, but he tried to hunt Rebel scum and duel Luke. He killed his Emperor just like Vader planned to do. 

    Ben was a powerful Jedi. IV has him turned into a sad-sack “crazy old wizard.” 
    Fair point about Rey, I'd just say that I think Lucas told us what we needed to know about the Skywalkers and starting fresh would have been preferable (IMO).  Sometimes a demand for more, for details and specificity drives things into the ground.  One of the patterns of the audience's relationship with Star Wars over the years is that a demand to know more is met with disappointment.  That's how we got midichlorians, people wanted to know something that really didn't need to be known and the answer sucked.  To me, it would have been more powerful if Rey was just some girl.  The way things are, there's a horrible un-American message being sent to the audience - don't dream, you need to be born into this.  This isn't for you.  I don't want to derail into politics, but my view on this is definitely influenced by my punk-rock soul and (far) left beliefs...I can't stand King/Queen/special people BS.  All power to the people! ✊

    Ben wasn't sad-sack. Him being a 'crazy old wizard' was a public perception of him, not who he was. He was Merlin. 

    As for Kylo...I don't want to ramble on longer than I usually do (as it is my posts require a TLDR summation!) but JJ set him up as a new Vader.  Rian did a re-set and reintroduced Lucas' notion of balance. The rise of the Jedi council was met by the rise of the Emporer and the corruption of Anakin.  The rise of Vader brought about the rise of Luke.  Rian understood that the rise Snoke brought about the rise of Rey. That put Kylo in the middle ("I can feel the pull to the light").  In the original movies, Vader tried to recruit Luke to get rid of the Emporer.  In these movies Kylo tried to recruit Rey to get rid of Snoke.  In both cases, the big-bad was killed.  Luke threw away his lightsabre, he stopped fighting.  That allowed the power to balance and bring Vader back.  Rey didn't stop fighting, which required the dark to compensate and pull Kylo to its side.  That was the table the Rian set.  JJ ignored it and undermined it by having the Emperor being alive the whole time - nothing makes sense anymore.
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited December 2019
    @CretanBull How do you reconcile the fatalistic/deterministic aspect of the "balance" thing (I don't know philosophy, so apologies!) with the free will of the "Rey is nobody" thing?

    I'm sure Kylo would love to get to choose his destiny.
  • FreddyFreddy Denton, Texas
    I can't be the only one who really wants to see the Luke/Lando roadshow, right?
    Aww_PHuuCkJoshuaHeter
  • I was so enamored with the Luke vs Leia lightsaber fight that I missed what the hell they even said was the reasoning for her quitting her Jedi training. Did they pull some “she died of a broken heart” bullshit?
  • JaimieT said:
    @CretanBull How do you reconcile the fatalistic/deterministic aspect of the "balance" thing (I don't know philosophy, so apologies!) with the free will of the "Rey is nobody" thing?

    I'm sure Kylo would love to get to choose his destiny.
    In the no-special family version of Star Wars, Rey has free will - if balance is needed the darkside could tempt her.  If she gives in (by choice) then fine.  If she doesn't, then someone somewhere else will - the greater the imbalance, the greater the pull will be and someone will be lured.  We have to think about this as a giant (universe) sized scale and not the interplace between a small group of special people.  On a daily basis, all force-sensitive people are being pulled in one direction or another - no one has consistent morality in all actions.  The smaller infractions are essentially negated/balanced by the sheer volume of other minor infractions.  The big shifts come when there's a huge imbalance - that requires a equally large counterbalance.  Like in the prequels when the Jedi council were wiping out all the bad guys...that necessitated he rise of an ultra-powerful counterbalance (the Emporer).
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited December 2019
    I hate to repeat myself, but I did tag that example for a reason. The idea that Kylo had to be the bad guy because of something Rey did... that seems antithetical to the ideal that a person gets to choose their destiny. 

    I don't know if I'm missing something there, or why you didn't address it... It just seems in direct conflict.

    Maybe it's a personal psychology thing and you either mind that or you don't.
    Pangs
  • JaimieT said:
    I hate to repeat myself, but I did tag that example for a reason. The idea that Kylo had to be the bad guy because of something Rey did... that seems antithetical to the ideal that a person gets to choose their destiny. 

    I don't know if I'm missing something there, or why you didn't address it... It just seems in direct conflict.
    It's not that Kylo had to be the bad guy to restore balance, it's that someone had to be.  With someone of Rey's power putting her thumb on the good side of the scale, an equal force needed to be put on the other side.  Kylo was free to make his own choices, the draw and lure were intense because balance needed to be restored but he could have gone good and the balance would have been restored in another way (maybe our stableboy would have grown up to be the next Emperor).


  • edited December 2019
    The absolute funniest thing about this whole trilogy is them putting Kylo’s stupid helmet back together. Just the most childish shit ever.
    Pangs
  • edited December 2019
    @CretanBull - Following the thread with @jaimeT, it seems like that takes away the agency of the characters. I thought the point (as others had put it) is that Ren chose to be evil (by killing Han) as opposed to being corrupted by Snoke. In any case, I still think Luke's illusion deactivates his saber (even though.he'd be safe), mirroring Obi-Wan's last act. Kylo tries to kill him much like Vader kills Obi-Wan. If anything, the end result is the same, but the agency is different.

    I agree that JJ undid some of the prequels and TLJ, but I think RJ tried to undo TFA. So balance there, I guess!!!


    JaimieT
  • TLJ doesn’t undo anything from TFA, though. It answers questions and resolves plot points brought up in that movie. You can not like those things, but nothing is “undone” by Johnson’s movie.
    DoubleT
  • TLJ doesn’t undo anything from TFA, though. It answers questions and resolves plot points brought up in that movie. You can not like those things, but nothing is “undone” by Johnson’s movie.
    Undo / Demphasize / Offset. Semantics. Who is Snoke? Doesn't matter...not important. Who are Rey's parents...nevermind, unimportant. Who are the Knights of Ren? Who?? It abandons these threads, whatever you want to call it. I certainly would not say those plot points were "resolved."
  • I don't know if I'm not getting something or not explaining myself well.  There is 100% free will, full stop.  The fact that a need for balance tempts people one way or the other doesn't over-ride their personal decision making.  In fact, it's their free will that determines the balance. 




  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    I'll put it this way @CretanBull: How does it tempt them?
  • edited December 2019
    rkcrawf said:
    TLJ doesn’t undo anything from TFA, though. It answers questions and resolves plot points brought up in that movie. You can not like those things, but nothing is “undone” by Johnson’s movie.
    Undo / Demphasize / Offset. Semantics. Who is Snoke? Doesn't matter...not important. Who are Rey's parents...nevermind, unimportant. Who are the Knights of Ren? Who?? It abandons these threads, whatever you want to call it. I certainly would not say those plot points were "resolved."
    We know who Snoke is, he’s the Sith who began corrupting Ben and took him as a protege when he left the Jedi. Do you want the Rise of Snoke next? I’m sure JJ would be happy to make it, he’s got a whole different trilogy to rip off for that one. 

    Rey’s parents were nobody.

    JJ doesn’t even know who the Knights of Ren are, so who cares? 
  • JaimieT said:
    I'll put it this way @CretanBull: How does it tempt them?
    I don't know if there's a uniform answer to that, or even if there needs to be one.  I don't say that to sweep it under the rug or dismiss it (I don't mean to invalidate your question!).  Kylo says "I can feel the pull to the light" - I'm not sure if delving into what exactly he's feeling, how he's feeling it, what exactly is pulling him etc matters.  It's sort of like wanting an engineering answer to a philosophical question.  What I said above "Sometimes a demand for more, for details and specificity drives things into the ground...That's how we got midichlorians."

  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited December 2019
    The point of the question is to show, in a real world way, that their free will is being eroded in the process of temptation. We -- or some of us -- instinctively understand this, but examples are still helpful. (And I could be wrong, maybe "we" just disagree. I just don't think so.)

    I can think of examples where someone can be tempted so heavily that they practically have nothing resembling free will. Temptation really just seems to be external influence over one's free will IMO.

    This is all because you seem paradoxically pro free-will, self-destiny. But maybe your love of the TLJ Rey development comes from something else, IDK. 



  • DoubleTDoubleT Melbourne, Australia
     Jim said he keeps waiting for the next movie to be good.
    What surprised me over the past week was re-watching TFA & TLJ & then listening to the guys' podcast reviews. @Jim do you remember how positive you were about both movies in your reviews? You were quite pumped about TFA & said you were excited to see what comes next. From the opening minutes of the TLJ review you keep saying that you really liked it. Now, not only did you dislike TROS but you speak as if the whole trilogy has been a train wreck. That you couldn't blame Abrams for saying "fk it" when writing this movie given what he had to lead in from. I'm not pointing this out to be a pedantic a-hole. All I'm saying, as a piece of honest feedback is that when your opinion has changed so much, perhaps due to subsequent viewings of the prior movies you could mention that fact in the next installment's review as an explanation for why your views have shifted so much. Otherwise it's quite the whiplash effect when listening to the podcasts in succession. It would be like a reviewer loving say the second season of Better Call Saul, then coming back the next year & being totally down on it without any description of why.
  • edited December 2019
    DoubleT said:
     Jim said he keeps waiting for the next movie to be good.
    What surprised me over the past week was re-watching TFA & TLJ & then listening to the guys' podcast reviews. @Jim do you remember how positive you were about both movies in your reviews? You were quite pumped about TFA & said you were excited to see what comes next. From the opening minutes of the TLJ review you keep saying that you really liked it. Now, not only did you dislike TROS but you speak as if the whole trilogy has been a train wreck. That you couldn't blame Abrams for saying "fk it" when writing this movie given what he had to lead in from. I'm not pointing this out to be a pedantic a-hole. All I'm saying, as a piece of honest feedback is that when your opinion has changed so much, perhaps due to subsequent viewings of the prior movies you could mention that fact in the next installment's review as an explanation for why your views have shifted so much. Otherwise it's quite the whiplash effect when listening to the podcasts in succession. It would be like a reviewer loving say the second season of Better Call Saul, then coming back the next year & being totally down on it without any description of why.
    Star Wars seems to have this bizarre psychological effect on people. It’s almost supernatural in its ability to make you think you like it when you watch it, right up until everyone else convinces you that you actually hate it and that’s just your life now.

    A. Ron also said in that review that one of his favorite things about The Last Jedi was the casino planet stuff. But now he hates it. There’s just something about this particular franchise that allows for wild branch-swinging opinions, and I’ve never understood it.

    I hope scientists study the brains of Star Wars fans one day. 
    DoubleTadampaszseauxphie
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Do you mean to be incendiary @RyanReeseman
  • FreddyFreddy Denton, Texas
    awookiee said:
    Freddy said:
    A. Ron in the spoiler review:

    "Someone tell the ground base shield system on Hoth that you can't power shields, IN ATMOSPHEEERE!!!!!! WHAT?!  C'MON!"

    @38:10



    With all this being said, would it be alright if I start another spoiler thread strictly for things people liked about the movie? So many of them for me, and I feel like they will just get lost in the sea of hate/love/argument comments.
    @Freddy Please do, I would enjoy a Star Wars Episode 9 positivity thread. 
    @Murderbear Just give me the word.
  • JaimieT said:
    The point of the question is to show, in a real world way, that their free will is being eroded in the process of temptation. We -- or some of us -- instinctively understand this, but examples are still helpful. (And I could be wrong, maybe "we" just disagree. I just don't think so.)

    I can think of examples where someone can be tempted so heavily that they practically have nothing resembling free will. Temptation really just seems to be external influence over one's free will IMO.

    This is all because you seem paradoxically pro free-will, self-destiny. But maybe your love of the TLJ Rey development comes from something else, IDK. 



    Temptation doesn't erode free will, resistance or giving in to temptation is what defines free will.  How can you claim to be an autonomous decision-maker if there aren't external forces trying to influence the decisions that you make?  Without those influences, what exactly are you exerting your free will over?  In the context of Star Wars. we're talking about good vs evil - moral philosophy and not other types of free will (random vs predetermined actions for example).  In moral philosophy, a claim of free will is predicated on giving into or resisting temptation.

    "I'm hungry, I'm going to eat a sandwich" is a freely made action, but isn't an exertion of free will in the moral-philosophical sense.  "I'm hungry, I know that I should have salad but that pizza looks really good" is.  There's a choice there, (for argument's sake) a right and a wrong option...the choice that you know you should make vs the tempting choice that you know isn't right but offers you something more enticing.  
    Teresa from Concord
  • JaimieT said:
    Do you mean to be incendiary @RyanReeseman
    Probably. But mostly just fascinated by a fandom that never knows what it wants. 
    Teresa from Concord
  • Remember what A. Ron said happens to people who get chippy about Star Wars during this holiday season, lol
  • No large body of people, fans included, should be expected to hold one opinion. It’s okay for a fandom to appear divided or to not know what it wants. I’m sure, if you take the time to talk to individuals, they can be pretty articulate at what they want. 

    @CretanBull Still having trouble understanding the anger/disappointment at JJ turning Han into a “sad-sack” bc his family life is wrecked. Trying to reconcile it with RJ turning Luke into a sad-sack bc his Jedi school is wrecked. Looking for balance here, but not seeing it. 
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    JaimieT said:
    Speculating on why JJ went this direction with Hux, which I honestly don't hate, it's because JJ set up Hux and Kylo to have a combative, competitive relationship. Emotionally that should culminate in a stand-off. After being broken by Kylo in The Last Jedi, it makes so much sense for him to not only defect but destroy the First Order on his way out. Why even fight for a group that is going to shit on your contributions? Kylo destroyed any dignity he had left. I get it.

    Is it really stupid? Yes. But it's the only pure thing I saw in those leaks. It kind of made my brain light up.
    I was getting Crix Madine energy from Hux, then he got shot. Twice. 
    JaimieT
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    DoubleT said:
     Jim said he keeps waiting for the next movie to be good.
    What surprised me over the past week was re-watching TFA & TLJ & then listening to the guys' podcast reviews. @Jim do you remember how positive you were about both movies in your reviews? You were quite pumped about TFA & said you were excited to see what comes next. From the opening minutes of the TLJ review you keep saying that you really liked it. Now, not only did you dislike TROS but you speak as if the whole trilogy has been a train wreck. That you couldn't blame Abrams for saying "fk it" when writing this movie given what he had to lead in from. I'm not pointing this out to be a pedantic a-hole. All I'm saying, as a piece of honest feedback is that when your opinion has changed so much, perhaps due to subsequent viewings of the prior movies you could mention that fact in the next installment's review as an explanation for why your views have shifted so much. Otherwise it's quite the whiplash effect when listening to the podcasts in succession. It would be like a reviewer loving say the second season of Better Call Saul, then coming back the next year & being totally down on it without any description of why.
    Star Wars seems to have this bizarre psychological effect on people. It’s almost supernatural in its ability to make you think you like it when you watch it, right up until everyone else convinces you that you actually hate it and that’s just your life now.

    A. Ron also said in that review that one of his favorite things about The Last Jedi was the casino planet stuff. But now he hates it. There’s just something about this particular franchise that allows for wild branch-swinging opinions, and I’ve never understood it.

    I hope scientists study the brains of Star Wars fans one day. 
    I know for me, watching it with the kiddo really amps up the sentimentality. I can't speak for Jim, but I don't think I've pulled a 180 on these movies. I really liked TFA. I really didn't like TLJ, and I thought TROS was absurd. I do think ending the trilogy in a way that was not to my eyes satisfactory makes the entire enterprise seem worse in retrospect. 

    Regardless of anyone's personal like or dislike of the resulting movies, this strikes me as one of those Bad/Good Process / Bad/Good Outcome type quadrant deals. I think the way you handle these kind of things is either plan things out in advance and coordinate between the directors and projects, or you do them one at a time and wait until you have a good story ready to go before you go ahead with the next one. To do otherwise is a "bad process", and it's a bad process regardless of whether you liked the movie or not ("Good outcome"). I'd rather have good processes that crank out the occasional creative failure than bad processes that occasionally crank out a watchable film for some people.

    But that's just me.
    rkcrawfRyanReesemanJaimieT
  • I think even if it had a good process, the odds were stacked against this trilogy living up to potential. Hamill, Fisher and Ford are all in their late 60s, early 70s. The conclusion to the Skywalker saga that people would want would feature the three more prominently, but there's no way a major studio would do that. What the more dedicated fandom would want was Luke and Mara fighting Joruus Cbaoth or something similar, which can't be due to age.

    So this was going to be a story of a hand off. Which is where I guess the bad process part comes in. And it's where for me TLJ simply ruined this trilogy for me. I really wish Rian Johnson had had the strength of his convictions. But to me the whole thing with first introducing the intergalactic elite who profits from war no matter who is in charge and who has literal child slaves, and then having our heroes free the non-horses and ignore all of that made it clear that they had no direction in mind.
    RyanReeseman
  • rkcrawf said:
    @CretanBull Still having trouble understanding the anger/disappointment at JJ turning Han into a “sad-sack” bc his family life is wrecked. Trying to reconcile it with RJ turning Luke into a sad-sack bc his Jedi school is wrecked. Looking for balance here, but not seeing it. 
    Re Han: not just his family life is a wreck..his ship has been stolen and his story arc is wrecked by having him revert to who he was before he was transformed in the first three movies.

    Re Luke: JJ was the one who had Luke turn his back on everyone and run away...I'll give him a pass on that because we don't know what his intentions were (I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, but based on what he did with the others I feel like I'm being very generous!).  RJ made sense of the move by echoing the theme of balance.  He saw what was happening with Kylo and withdrew in an attempt to restore balance.
  • I think even if it had a good process, the odds were stacked against this trilogy living up to potential. Hamill, Fisher and Ford are all in their late 60s, early 70s. The conclusion to the Skywalker saga that people would want would feature the three more prominently, but there's no way a major studio would do that. What the more dedicated fandom would want was Luke and Mara fighting Joruus Cbaoth or something similar, which can't be due to age.

    So this was going to be a story of a hand off. Which is where I guess the bad process part comes in. And it's where for me TLJ simply ruined this trilogy for me. I really wish Rian Johnson had had the strength of his convictions. But to me the whole thing with first introducing the intergalactic elite who profits from war no matter who is in charge and who has literal child slaves, and then having our heroes free the non-horses and ignore all of that made it clear that they had no direction in mind.
    I think TLJ is a brilliant pivot point that any great writer could have run with, but my one criticism has remained throughout- Kylo and Rey should have joined forces at the end of that movie. THAT should have been the cliffhanger leading into this last movie. I don’t know if that was an RJ thing or a Disney thing, but a final conflict between Kylo/Rey and the FO/Resistance is immeasurably more interesting than what we got. 
    rkcrawfweeniegirl
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