I was told I wasn't making sense. I'm not sure how much of that is a problem for everyone, or who cares, but to clear a few things up (these go in order):
I watched the first 3 episodes at a friend's house, which I don't normally do. And I will never do again! I missed that the "Nazi" thing was explicitly stated by Edgar, in season 2 episode 1. I thought it was from season 1 (my brain, oy). So Nazism is a clear theme from the first episode of season 2, check. Apologies for typing up these wonderful, amazing thoughts and missing such a banal detail.
When I was growing up, the Nazis weren't "racist." They weren't "hateful." They were immoral leaders who experimented on their civilians and sent the undesirables to be killed. There is definitely an element of racism to this, but this is distinct from today's common understanding of Nazi = racism, Nazi = hate, and, in the broader culture, racism = hating black people. I'm making NO statement on which of these interpretations is correct (frankly, it disinterests me). One is "pop" to me, but as we've seen with the Beatles, pop can quickly turn to status quo.
After the first 3 episodes, I was baffled that people were talking about racism. I didn't even notice the color of skin of the people Stormfront killed. (haha, yes, funny line these days)
In episode 4, Stormfront is definitively racist in a way I'm sure the writer is aware of, is intentional about. However, Homelander is racist. The SHOW is racist — a middle-easterner's superpower is surviving suicide bombing? Hello? And I'm sure there's racist stuff in season 1. To me, this could be interpreted as "Stormfront purports to be a good, liberal person, but she's actually super shitty" — we've seen that happen with many of the Seven.
Ergo, I'm not sure the racism interpretation is warranted yet. Nazi, of course. Eugenics, yes. Not sure about racism. Maybe the writer is doing the promotion circuits saying this is about racism... maybe I'm missing something. I guess I'll find out as the season goes on.
I do think that if you're a writer and you want to do a Nazi reference but you don't want everyone to assume you're talking about racism in America, these would be good ways to show your intentions: (1) have a character who is outside the conspiracy be racist (check), (2) have a character inside the conspiracy blatantly discuss eugenics (check), (3) have a black guy at the head of the organization (check).
Jaimie, can you explain to me how the concept of untermensch is not racist? This is the most puzzling claim you're making, which if I can try to restate; the framing of Nazis as racist is a modern pop-history concept that is not true, or if it is true, is confined to Jewish people only.
Yeah, seems that this is true for Stormfront and the Vought company as a whole. An organization with roots in Nazi Germany that covered up racist murder in the mid-20th century and has built the media empire we see on the show would also learn to adapt its tactics as the world changes.
It does make me wonder just how involved Edgar is with Stormfront's plan. Vought's obviously protected her before and Edgar got her on the team, but are they collaborating on whatever larger plan she has, or was he content with getting her on the Seven and doing whatever she was going to do, knowing that it would likely benefit Vought? It'll be interesting to see if the company is deeply involved or if pairing Stormfront with Homelander makes the Supes even harder to control and it blows up in Edgar's face.
On a scale of 1 - 10, how bad is a murder? And how bad is a racist murder?
Two 10s, I guess? Murder and a hate crime? 10 and a 9, I don't know.
But yes, if Stormfront's racism was subtext before, it certainly becomes text when she calls Kenji a "yellow bastard" as she murders him.
Add to that the events in North Carolina in the 70s and that the Vought Company has more than favored a certain segment of the population with Compound V, there's no question at this point. Nazi roots or no.
Stormfront's speech to Homelander also feels like a parallel to extreme rhetoric online leading to real world violence, QAnon being just the latest high profile example. She calls her most devoted followers an "army" and I don't see her organizing them for something innocuous like a peaceful demonstration outside of Vought's headquarters.
I'm not sure how she would square inspiring such a group while maintaining her public ultra-"woke" image, but maybe by that point, she wouldn't need to. Or maybe, like Vought having a black man at its head, maintaining public distance from her army would give her some plausible deniability.
I think the show is a mirror - displaying all sorts of things about our society. Over the top marketing, corporate v public, hero worship, racism, rape culture, etc.
Just my 2 cents. Not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone or trying to make an argument. I’ve studied WW2 and Nazism for the last 15 years and this is just my belief.
The Nazi ideology has many ideas. But one of the biggest is the idea that the European races, specifically those of the Germanic and Nordic people were superior to other races.
If you look at the treatment of Norway compared to say Poland during their Nazi occupations it is quite clear the Nazi’s were indeed racist. Hitler and his party felt the Nordic people were of good breed and treated them as such, with major plans of building state of the art cities in these countries. In Poland, there was only a plan of extermination and taking land.
I think it's a matter of degree. I don't think anyone would argue that the Nazi's were pro-Black. Also nobody can deny that the Nazi's were less anti-Black than they were anti-Jew.
I was told I wasn't making sense. I'm not sure how much of that is a problem for everyone, or who cares, but to clear a few things up (these go in order):
I watched the first 3 episodes at a friend's house, which I don't normally do. And I will never do again! I missed that the "Nazi" thing was explicitly stated by Edgar, in season 2 episode 1. I thought it was from season 1 (my brain, oy). So Nazism is a clear theme from the first episode of season 2, check. Apologies for typing up these wonderful, amazing thoughts and missing such a banal detail.
When I was growing up, the Nazis weren't "racist." They weren't "hateful." They were immoral leaders who experimented on their civilians and sent the undesirables to be killed. There is definitely an element of racism to this, but this is distinct from today's common understanding of Nazi = racism, Nazi = hate, and, in the broader culture, racism = hating black people. I'm making NO statement on which of these interpretations is correct (frankly, it disinterests me). One is "pop" to me, but as we've seen with the Beatles, pop can quickly turn to status quo.
After the first 3 episodes, I was baffled that people were talking about racism. I didn't even notice the color of skin of the people Stormfront killed. (haha, yes, funny line these days)
In episode 4, Stormfront is definitively racist in a way I'm sure the writer is aware of, is intentional about. However, Homelander is racist. The SHOW is racist — a middle-easterner's superpower is surviving suicide bombing? Hello? And I'm sure there's racist stuff in season 1. To me, this could be interpreted as "Stormfront purports to be a good, liberal person, but she's actually super shitty" — we've seen that happen with many of the Seven.
Ergo, I'm not sure the racism interpretation is warranted yet. Nazi, of course. Eugenics, yes. Not sure about racism. Maybe the writer is doing the promotion circuits saying this is about racism... maybe I'm missing something. I guess I'll find out as the season goes on.
I do think that if you're a writer and you want to do a Nazi reference but you don't want everyone to assume you're talking about racism in America, these would be good ways to show your intentions: (1) have a character who is outside the conspiracy be racist (check), (2) have a character inside the conspiracy blatantly discuss eugenics (check), (3) have a black guy at the head of the organization (check).
Catch you guys next episode.
That is a bit of a hot take. Maybe @Hatorian can weigh in and correct me here but in my understanding they weren't primarily anti-black, but they definitely considered blacks to be an inferior race, along with many other types of people. In fact, while Germany did not force sterilize Blacks, they did surreptitiously force sterilize approximately 500 mixed-race children born during occupation. Outside of that there was no real Nazi policy towards African Germans. So yes, I can see why two people could have different opinions on whether Nazi's were anti-Black. In so far as the majority of the world has been anti-black, so was Nazi Germany. It doesn't really strongly outpace the level of anti-black sentiment in America at the same time.
If your take is that Nazi's were less concerned with racism and hate than they were with eugenics, that seems to me to be a bit like splitting hairs. The undesirable characteristics they wanted to remove were an entire race of people.
I suspect you're not really married to that idea anyway, as it seems to have been born out of a missed plot point, per your first point, and you stated the topic disinterests you.
Per number 3, I read the opposite. Stormfront coldly tossed a black civilian against a wall in the chase through the apartment building. Then she used racist language when killing Kimiko's brother, and later when killing that poor lady's mother in the past. (Assuming that is her.) I do take your point that she isn't the only racist character, but her racism is definitely made more explicit than the rest.
As to the shows intentions, I'm not certain whether the story is about racism really, so I'm inclined to agree with you based on the first 4 episodes.
I think it's a matter of degree. I don't think anyone would argue that the Nazi's were pro-Black. Also nobody can deny that the Nazi's were less anti-Black than they were anti-Jew.
I was told I wasn't making sense. I'm not sure how much of that is a problem for everyone, or who cares, but to clear a few things up (these go in order):
I watched the first 3 episodes at a friend's house, which I don't normally do. And I will never do again! I missed that the "Nazi" thing was explicitly stated by Edgar, in season 2 episode 1. I thought it was from season 1 (my brain, oy). So Nazism is a clear theme from the first episode of season 2, check. Apologies for typing up these wonderful, amazing thoughts and missing such a banal detail.
When I was growing up, the Nazis weren't "racist." They weren't "hateful." They were immoral leaders who experimented on their civilians and sent the undesirables to be killed. There is definitely an element of racism to this, but this is distinct from today's common understanding of Nazi = racism, Nazi = hate, and, in the broader culture, racism = hating black people. I'm making NO statement on which of these interpretations is correct (frankly, it disinterests me). One is "pop" to me, but as we've seen with the Beatles, pop can quickly turn to status quo.
After the first 3 episodes, I was baffled that people were talking about racism. I didn't even notice the color of skin of the people Stormfront killed. (haha, yes, funny line these days)
In episode 4, Stormfront is definitively racist in a way I'm sure the writer is aware of, is intentional about. However, Homelander is racist. The SHOW is racist — a middle-easterner's superpower is surviving suicide bombing? Hello? And I'm sure there's racist stuff in season 1. To me, this could be interpreted as "Stormfront purports to be a good, liberal person, but she's actually super shitty" — we've seen that happen with many of the Seven.
Ergo, I'm not sure the racism interpretation is warranted yet. Nazi, of course. Eugenics, yes. Not sure about racism. Maybe the writer is doing the promotion circuits saying this is about racism... maybe I'm missing something. I guess I'll find out as the season goes on.
I do think that if you're a writer and you want to do a Nazi reference but you don't want everyone to assume you're talking about racism in America, these would be good ways to show your intentions: (1) have a character who is outside the conspiracy be racist (check), (2) have a character inside the conspiracy blatantly discuss eugenics (check), (3) have a black guy at the head of the organization (check).
Catch you guys next episode.
That is a bit of a hot take. Maybe @Hatorian can weigh in and correct me here but in my understanding they weren't primarily anti-black, but they definitely considered blacks to be an inferior race, along with many other types of people. In fact, while Germany did not force sterilize Blacks, they did surreptitiously force sterilize approximately 500 mixed-race children born during occupation. Outside of that there was no real Nazi policy towards African Germans. So yes, I can see why two people could have different opinions on whether Nazi's were anti-Black. In so far as the majority of the world has been anti-black, so was Nazi Germany. It doesn't really strongly outpace the level of anti-black sentiment in America at the same time.
If your take is that Nazi's were less concerned with racism and hate than they were with eugenics, that seems to me to be a bit like splitting hairs. The undesirable characteristics they wanted to remove were an entire race of people.
I suspect you're not really married to that idea anyway, as it seems to have been born out of a missed plot point, per your first point, and you stated the topic disinterests you.
Per number 3, I read the opposite. Stormfront coldly tossed a black civilian against a wall in the chase through the apartment building. Then she used racist language when killing Kimiko's brother, and later when killing that poor lady's mother in the past. (Assuming that is her.) I do take your point that she isn't the only racist character, but her racism is definitely made more explicit than the rest.
As to the shows intentions, I'm not certain whether the story is about racism really, so I'm inclined to agree with you based on the first 4 episodes.
Thank you.
So, the explicit racist murder (oh no I'm saying it now!) of the woman in the past, that was in episode 4. This was after my point #3, where I hadn't noticed the racism on my own. The Seven fling a lot of people up against walls... so, shrug. The "yellow" comment is a good point, forgot about that; I can't remember what I thought about that at the time.
I could start to talk about the stuff in your paras 1-3, but I've explained my comments THREE times now, and I'm sick of it. Whatever the problem is, it's not that I didn't try to explain!
Everyone will just have to be "puzzled" and "baffled" indefinitely.
I think the show is a mirror - displaying all sorts of things about our society. Over the top marketing, corporate v public, hero worship, racism, rape culture, etc.
The example I cited (absent from your quote) didn't have any commentary from the script. With rape culture, we see characters we like be harmed. With racism, it's the villains being racist. In a sense, the show is a mirror -- as much as every other urban fantasy story is a mirror. But there's still PLENTY of moralizing going on. There's a script; they didn't just film people talking. It's a modified mirror.
So to give someone a superpower that reveals itself as a stereotype? And no moralizing/modification around it? I've often, often seen such things labelled as the writer revealing their bias. Please let me know if you'd like examples in other media to clarify what I'm talking about. I can probably find them pretty easily, and I enjoy this stuff.
SO: if I have a strong example the writer is showing racism without commentary, isn't it reasonable of me to question if there might be other racism without commentary? Rhetorical.
Anyway, maybe the show will circle back to this moment, give it some commentary. Me, personally, I'm really not too judgy about this kind of thing. I'll be fine either way.
I think it's a matter of degree. I don't think anyone would argue that the Nazi's were pro-Black. Also nobody can deny that the Nazi's were less anti-Black than they were anti-Jew.
I was told I wasn't making sense. I'm not sure how much of that is a problem for everyone, or who cares, but to clear a few things up (these go in order):
I watched the first 3 episodes at a friend's house, which I don't normally do. And I will never do again! I missed that the "Nazi" thing was explicitly stated by Edgar, in season 2 episode 1. I thought it was from season 1 (my brain, oy). So Nazism is a clear theme from the first episode of season 2, check. Apologies for typing up these wonderful, amazing thoughts and missing such a banal detail.
When I was growing up, the Nazis weren't "racist." They weren't "hateful." They were immoral leaders who experimented on their civilians and sent the undesirables to be killed. There is definitely an element of racism to this, but this is distinct from today's common understanding of Nazi = racism, Nazi = hate, and, in the broader culture, racism = hating black people. I'm making NO statement on which of these interpretations is correct (frankly, it disinterests me). One is "pop" to me, but as we've seen with the Beatles, pop can quickly turn to status quo.
After the first 3 episodes, I was baffled that people were talking about racism. I didn't even notice the color of skin of the people Stormfront killed. (haha, yes, funny line these days)
In episode 4, Stormfront is definitively racist in a way I'm sure the writer is aware of, is intentional about. However, Homelander is racist. The SHOW is racist — a middle-easterner's superpower is surviving suicide bombing? Hello? And I'm sure there's racist stuff in season 1. To me, this could be interpreted as "Stormfront purports to be a good, liberal person, but she's actually super shitty" — we've seen that happen with many of the Seven.
Ergo, I'm not sure the racism interpretation is warranted yet. Nazi, of course. Eugenics, yes. Not sure about racism. Maybe the writer is doing the promotion circuits saying this is about racism... maybe I'm missing something. I guess I'll find out as the season goes on.
I do think that if you're a writer and you want to do a Nazi reference but you don't want everyone to assume you're talking about racism in America, these would be good ways to show your intentions: (1) have a character who is outside the conspiracy be racist (check), (2) have a character inside the conspiracy blatantly discuss eugenics (check), (3) have a black guy at the head of the organization (check).
Catch you guys next episode.
That is a bit of a hot take. Maybe @Hatorian can weigh in and correct me here but in my understanding they weren't primarily anti-black, but they definitely considered blacks to be an inferior race, along with many other types of people. In fact, while Germany did not force sterilize Blacks, they did surreptitiously force sterilize approximately 500 mixed-race children born during occupation. Outside of that there was no real Nazi policy towards African Germans. So yes, I can see why two people could have different opinions on whether Nazi's were anti-Black. In so far as the majority of the world has been anti-black, so was Nazi Germany. It doesn't really strongly outpace the level of anti-black sentiment in America at the same time.
If your take is that Nazi's were less concerned with racism and hate than they were with eugenics, that seems to me to be a bit like splitting hairs. The undesirable characteristics they wanted to remove were an entire race of people.
I suspect you're not really married to that idea anyway, as it seems to have been born out of a missed plot point, per your first point, and you stated the topic disinterests you.
Per number 3, I read the opposite. Stormfront coldly tossed a black civilian against a wall in the chase through the apartment building. Then she used racist language when killing Kimiko's brother, and later when killing that poor lady's mother in the past. (Assuming that is her.) I do take your point that she isn't the only racist character, but her racism is definitely made more explicit than the rest.
As to the shows intentions, I'm not certain whether the story is about racism really, so I'm inclined to agree with you based on the first 4 episodes.
Hitler has made many comments on the black community both locally in Germany and also in the US. His exact words were mixed race babies “were contaminated” by negro blood. Pretty racist comment.
He also felt the US was weak because the Jews and Negros (his words) were a drain on the US and he had a few key figures in the US that worked on increasing the NAZI party in the US and almost all of these gentlemen were far right, KKK supporting men.
His racism was also a key factor in him declaring war with the US. He had no faith they could unite and the existing social and racial barriers would cause enough internal strife to limit their effectiveness.
himmler was notorious for trying to find ways to bomb NY and DC feeling simple acts like this would throw the US morale.
English were seen as ancestors of Germany (Norman conquest) and more importantly he felt the UK could co-exist under fair terms. IE UK keeps its empire. Germany has free reign in the east. However, giving Germany the east easily would have definitely caused issues in the Middle East where British and German interests would have severely conflicted once Russia was defeated.
There’s also multiple survivors of the war in high German places that immediately wanted to end the “western war in 1940” so as to free up all resources for the true threat of Bolshevism. Otto Skorzeny, one of the most daring commandos of World War 2 and did some real James Bond shit argued to his death that Germany just needed the West to stop and let Germany take out Stalin and boshelvism otherwise all of Europe could fall.
I recommend a book “Table Talk with Hitler” you have to download it as there is no more production of it. But it’s just notes of his dinner conversations for 2 years straight. Lots of stuff about art and the future but also many conversations around his beliefs.
Another book would be “living with Hitler” which is first hand accounts of his driver, maids and other staff.
Lastly Hitler did not actively pursue such murderous plans for blacks simply because he had plans to use them in the US to drive rebellion as well as needing them in North Africa against the US and UK.
I do think he would have clearly implemented a plan on the scale of the Jews at the right time if he was to win and had control over majority populations.
The people he treated the best and probably due to necessity was the Arab world. He and his team did everything they could to support uprisings and riots in places like Syria, Iran and others. He would on many occasions bring very influential Muslim leaders into Germany and treat them with respect.
The Nazi ideology has many ideas. But one of
the biggest is the idea that the European races, specifically those of
the Germanic and Nordic people were superior to other races.
If
you look at the treatment of Norway compared to say Poland during their
Nazi occupations it is quite clear the Nazi’s were indeed racist.
Hitler and his party felt the Nordic people were of good breed and
treated them as such, with major plans of building state of the art
cities in these countries. In Poland, there was only a plan of
extermination and taking land.
To me that’s racism.
Weird esoteric stuff that Hitler or especially Himmler where influenced by is one thing but it was still a hard sell since the people you are supposed to exterminate mostly look and live the same and might just have a different language.
For me that is fanatism paired with a high degree of ideological flexibility based on military need, for example taking in many collaborators in eastern occupied countries into newly constituted SS squads. Stormfronts racism if she was socialized in nazy germany seems indeed more like a modern pop culture version since there never was a huge sentiment against black or yellow people. Japan was an important ally and germany wasn't much of a colonial power in africa.
The S2E4 trip to the south (Ridiculous Abortion billboard - Homelander in a confederate flag cape) is evidence of one or the other:
1.) The Boys is racist, or 2.) The Boys is social commentary
Baldmovers decide...
1. Homelander is the villain, aka, "racism is something bad people do." 2. The abortion billboard is based on a false narrative, aka, "pro-life views are based on a false narrative."
There is no moralizing about the Middle Eastern man who has a stereotype as a superpower. Let me know if I missed something.
The S2E4 trip to the south (Ridiculous Abortion billboard - Homelander in a confederate flag cape) is evidence of one or the other:
1.) The Boys is racist, or 2.) The Boys is social commentary
Baldmovers decide...
1. Homelander is the villain, aka, "racism is something bad people do." 2. The abortion billboard is based on a false narrative, aka, "pro-life views are based on a false narrative."
There is no moralizing about the Middle Eastern man who has a stereotype as a superpower. Let me know if I missed something.
Homelander is only the villain from the viewers perspective - 'in-universe' he is a Supe - a media-hyped savior. 'In-universe' only a minority of the population see him as the villain. Right?
In-universe, he is Superman, and, someone with artistic skill (not quite @Marci level skill!) painted up the side of a barn to depict this Superman figure as wearing a confederate flag themed cape. In 2020, in my universe, a US state still had elements of the the confederate flag in its state flag.
The S2E4 trip to the south (Ridiculous Abortion billboard - Homelander in a confederate flag cape) is evidence of one or the other:
1.) The Boys is racist, or 2.) The Boys is social commentary
Baldmovers decide...
I would argue that's just capitalism. Some lobbying group, probably with licensing from Vought, put up a billboard to promote their lobbying position. The confederate flag is still pretty prominent in the south. I can see 2 of them from my house in rural GA. Probably a dozen more on my < 20min commute. They are traveling in to the south where pro-life and confederate flags are prominent. So I would say it strikes me as social commentary, and a touch of lazy (albeit realistic) story-telling.
The S2E4 trip to the south (Ridiculous Abortion billboard - Homelander in a confederate flag cape) is evidence of one or the other:
1.) The Boys is racist, or 2.) The Boys is social commentary
Baldmovers decide...
1. Homelander is the villain, aka, "racism is something bad people do." 2. The abortion billboard is based on a false narrative, aka, "pro-life views are based on a false narrative."
There is no moralizing about the Middle Eastern man who has a stereotype as a superpower. Let me know if I missed something.
Homelander is only the villain from the viewers perspective - 'in-universe' he is a Supe - a media-hyped savior. 'In-universe' only a minority of the population see him as the villain. Right?
In-universe, he is Superman, and, someone with artistic skill (not quite @Marci level skill!) painted up the side of a barn to depict this Superman figure as wearing a confederate flag themed cape. In 2020, in my universe, a US state still had elements of the the confederate flag in its state flag.
All right, I can see the distinction there. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
I have a reply to it, but it's a slightly different thing from what I was saying before. I don't want to sound like I'm shifting arguments though... I still hold that #2, for instance. And I would say that the audience (us) seeing Homelander being racist behind closed doors is still using his villain status to moralize against it -- something the show does many times.
But I can see that's not what you meant. So, let me analyze what I think you meant, and then use that analysis to consider the Middle Eastern man example.
A. The Boy's universe: People use cultural icons of real superheroes to make art about their racism and/or history. Revelation about our universe: People use cultural icons of theoretical superheroes to make art about their racism and/or history. (Example)
B. The Boy's universe: Pro-lifers make grand appeals to superhero potential to argue against abortion. Revelation about our universe: Pro-lifers make grand appeals to religious potential to argue against abortion. (Example)
C. The Boy's universe: A Middle Eastern man has superpowers that are a Middle Eastern male stereotype. Revelation about our universe: Middle Easterners are their stereotypes....? The stereotypes are true....?
Notice in A and B, people are saying things. And in C, someone IS.
If the show is a mirror, this seems to be affirming stereotypes.
If Hughie and Starlight walked into a cafe and there was a TV show playing of a Middle Eastern man with a stereotype superpower, then I'd be on the same page as you in saying it's social commentary.
Not sure if the "yellow bastard" slur is systemic racism or not... hmm. Honestly made me very upset at a fine episode of television when I saw it. Is it just the Asian guy who thinks this?
I’ve been getting new episodes on thurs instead of fri. Probably everyone is. I’m not sure why because it says Fridays. 5 is a crazy episode. Looking forward to the podcast
I’m pretty sure they come out on Thursday. At least I’ve been getting mine at the same time as Raised by Wolves and Ted Lasso which has led to lots of content on the weekend and then nothing for the next 6 days
Yeah, they dropped it early. Fuck, we'll have our podcast out soon. Glad people getting it out early, but I wish they'd let us know when they change embargo dates, etc, ya know?
Comments
Catch you guys next episode.
But yes, if Stormfront's racism was subtext before, it certainly becomes text when she calls Kenji a "yellow bastard" as she murders him.
Add to that the events in North Carolina in the 70s and that the Vought Company has more than favored a certain segment of the population with Compound V, there's no question at this point. Nazi roots or no.
Stormfront's speech to Homelander also feels like a parallel to extreme rhetoric online leading to real world violence, QAnon being just the latest high profile example. She calls her most devoted followers an "army" and I don't see her organizing them for something innocuous like a peaceful demonstration outside of Vought's headquarters.
I'm not sure how she would square inspiring such a group while maintaining her public ultra-"woke" image, but maybe by that point, she wouldn't need to. Or maybe, like Vought having a black man at its head, maintaining public distance from her army would give her some plausible deniability.
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That is a bit of a hot take. Maybe @Hatorian can weigh in and correct me here but in my understanding they weren't primarily anti-black, but they definitely considered blacks to be an inferior race, along with many other types of people. In fact, while Germany did not force sterilize Blacks, they did surreptitiously force sterilize approximately 500 mixed-race children born during occupation. Outside of that there was no real Nazi policy towards African Germans. So yes, I can see why two people could have different opinions on whether Nazi's were anti-Black. In so far as the majority of the world has been anti-black, so was Nazi Germany. It doesn't really strongly outpace the level of anti-black sentiment in America at the same time.If your take is that Nazi's were less concerned with racism and hate than they were with eugenics, that seems to me to be a bit like splitting hairs. The undesirable characteristics they wanted to remove were an entire race of people.
I suspect you're not really married to that idea anyway, as it seems to have been born out of a missed plot point, per your first point, and you stated the topic disinterests you.
Per number 3, I read the opposite. Stormfront coldly tossed a black civilian against a wall in the chase through the apartment building. Then she used racist language when killing Kimiko's brother, and later when killing that poor lady's mother in the past. (Assuming that is her.) I do take your point that she isn't the only racist character, but her racism is definitely made more explicit than the rest.
As to the shows intentions, I'm not certain whether the story is about racism really, so I'm inclined to agree with you based on the first 4 episodes.
Thank you.
So, the explicit racist murder (oh no I'm saying it now!) of the woman in the past, that was in episode 4. This was after my point #3, where I hadn't noticed the racism on my own. The Seven fling a lot of people up against walls... so, shrug. The "yellow" comment is a good point, forgot about that; I can't remember what I thought about that at the time.
I could start to talk about the stuff in your paras 1-3, but I've explained my comments THREE times now, and I'm sick of it. Whatever the problem is, it's not that I didn't try to explain!
Everyone will just have to be "puzzled" and "baffled" indefinitely.
The example I cited (absent from your quote) didn't have any commentary from the script. With rape culture, we see characters we like be harmed. With racism, it's the villains being racist. In a sense, the show is a mirror -- as much as every other urban fantasy story is a mirror. But there's still PLENTY of moralizing going on. There's a script; they didn't just film people talking. It's a modified mirror.
So to give someone a superpower that reveals itself as a stereotype? And no moralizing/modification around it? I've often, often seen such things labelled as the writer revealing their bias. Please let me know if you'd like examples in other media to clarify what I'm talking about. I can probably find them pretty easily, and I enjoy this stuff.
SO: if I have a strong example the writer is showing racism without commentary, isn't it reasonable of me to question if there might be other racism without commentary? Rhetorical.
Anyway, maybe the show will circle back to this moment, give it some commentary. Me, personally, I'm really not too judgy about this kind of thing. I'll be fine either way.
himmler was notorious for trying to find ways to bomb NY and DC feeling simple acts like this would throw the US morale.
Stormfronts racism if she was socialized in nazy germany seems indeed more like a modern pop culture version since there never was a huge sentiment against black or yellow people. Japan was an important ally and germany wasn't much of a colonial power in africa.
1.) The Boys is racist, or
2.) The Boys is social commentary
Baldmovers decide...
1. Homelander is the villain, aka, "racism is something bad people do."
2. The abortion billboard is based on a false narrative, aka, "pro-life views are based on a false narrative."
There is no moralizing about the Middle Eastern man who has a stereotype as a superpower. Let me know if I missed something.
In-universe, he is Superman, and, someone with artistic skill (not quite @Marci level skill!) painted up the side of a barn to depict this Superman figure as wearing a confederate flag themed cape. In 2020, in my universe, a US state still had elements of the the confederate flag in its state flag.
Edit: Re: @tom_g ;
Homelander is the villain from the storytelling perspective. In the south, they are playing to their audience. That advertisement wouldn't fly in NYC.
All right, I can see the distinction there. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
I have a reply to it, but it's a slightly different thing from what I was saying before. I don't want to sound like I'm shifting arguments though... I still hold that #2, for instance. And I would say that the audience (us) seeing Homelander being racist behind closed doors is still using his villain status to moralize against it -- something the show does many times.
But I can see that's not what you meant. So, let me analyze what I think you meant, and then use that analysis to consider the Middle Eastern man example.
A.
The Boy's universe: People use cultural icons of real superheroes to make art about their racism and/or history.
Revelation about our universe: People use cultural icons of theoretical superheroes to make art about their racism and/or history. (Example)
B.
The Boy's universe: Pro-lifers make grand appeals to superhero potential to argue against abortion.
Revelation about our universe: Pro-lifers make grand appeals to religious potential to argue against abortion. (Example)
C.
The Boy's universe: A Middle Eastern man has superpowers that are a Middle Eastern male stereotype.
Revelation about our universe: Middle Easterners are their stereotypes....? The stereotypes are true....?
Notice in A and B, people are saying things. And in C, someone IS.
If the show is a mirror, this seems to be affirming stereotypes.
If Hughie and Starlight walked into a cafe and there was a TV show playing of a Middle Eastern man with a stereotype superpower, then I'd be on the same page as you in saying it's social commentary.
link
Anyway gotta go. Have a Boys to watch. And looking forward to the podcast!