LIndelofing

Jal2071 · May 2017

Is anyone else concerned that we are going to get Lindeloff'd at the end of the show? I'm still pissed about Lost. I admit I'm absolutely enthralled with the Leftovers but I can't help but prepare myself for the ending letting me down.

"It's not about the story, it's about the people" = I have no plan.

KingKobra · May 2017

No

calebthrower · May 2017

KingKobra said:
No

ditto. I feel like he has learned from his mistakes based on various interviews I've read with him over the span of The Leftovers

Reni · May 2017

When I saw the title I already knew what it was going to be about, and knew I was going to be pissed off about people STILL complaining about Lost. I still clicked on the thread. Why am I doing this to myself?

voodoorat · May 2017

i'm with @KingKobra and @calebthrower, i think he learned all the right lessons (and as aron has pointed out, judging from the prior to season finales which could have been series finales, he's already had a chance to practice twice and didn't fuck those up).

121MykInABetterPlace · May 2017

Jal2071 said:
Is anyone else concerned that we are going to get Lindeloff'd at the end of the show? I'm still pissed about Lost. I admit I'm absolutely enthralled with the Leftovers but I can't help but prepare myself for the ending letting me down.

"It's not about the story, it's about the people" = I have no plan.

Good morning Jal2071,

No. I am not concerned. In fact, I am certain of it, and I think that is a good thing.

I think this problem is about expectations. With Lost, the audience was always expecting an answer (or 451 answers for 451 different mysteries {How/Why was Walt 'Special'?}) Lindleof didn't message his intent well, and it's arguable that he deliberately went they other way and misled/stringed-along the audience. I think that is the lesson he learned before undertaking the Leftovers.

Lindelof and Perrotta have said from day one that we will never have an answer for the departure mystery. I am confident that extends to all of the current mysteries as well. For all of the ambiguity of mystery they built into the Season 2 finale, they still focused the story on the un-departed people, the left overs; their feelings about it, and how they cope with being left behind by the Departure and by each other.

All of the post Departure mysteries are manufactured in the minds of the characters and the world they live in. The production team has masterfully threaded the line between some sort of higher connected purpose/plan and dumb-luck/coincidence.

The Departure remaining unexplained for the characters is the stage setting for a world that explores 'what does it take for each person to start believing in some crazy shit.' In that way, this reminds me of Breaking Bad. There, each of us is challenged to decide when it is we will get off the Walter White train. How bad does Heisenberg have to get, before you stop routing for him?With The Leftovers, the question is 'how much unbelievable coincidence of specularly unlikely things do you have to see before you start to believe there is something larger happening to shape events?' With that question and your stated concern, may I take it you are in the @Jim camp and believe there is some sort of connectedness? If so, I can understand a strong desire to get an unambiguous answer; in fact, it might be necessary to enjoy the story. If you are still agnostic, or in the camp with @A_Ron_Hubbard, you might have a different perspective, and different expectations.

The Season 2 theme song prominently features an admonishment to 'let the mystery be.' While some take that to mean the mystery of the great Departure, I take that to mean the mystery of what the hell is going on with our current cast of characters. If your expectation is that Lindelof/Perrotta will provide a direct unambiguous answer to the current mysteries, then I am not sure we are watching the same show. It is telling that each of the previous season finales were also produced effectively as series finales, as the renewal green lights for both came after the finales aired. Each ended spectacularly well without providing any answers to big, worldly questions.

My expectation is that, in the final analysis, this season will end with some very interesting characters doing some very interesting things in some very interesting ways. It is arguable that I am simply setting for myself low expectations, but I would posit that I have incredibly high expectations for this show's ending. Not in answers to mysteries, but in world class performances, on a phenomenal production, delivering a satisfying emotionally cathartic ending.

I do expect the show to end with the mystery of the departure intact and all us still riding that magical line of ambiguity between connectedness and coincidence. That, in my opinion, is a very good thing.

Cheers,

Michael Nawrocki

hypergenesb · May 2017

nope

chuck1991 · May 2017

I always wonder if I am the only person on the planet who thought the ending to LOST was great.

Reni · May 2017

@chuck1991 Definitely not, I loved it too. I never understood all the hate.

toncica · May 2017

121MykInABetterPlace said:
All of the post Departure mysteries are manufactured in the minds of the characters and the world they live in. The production team has masterfully threaded the line between some sort of higher connected purpose/plan and dumb-luck/coincidence.

According to Lindelof there are supernatural elements in the show. I'm not sure if I heard him saying that or if it was a quote I read. It went something like that he's surprised that some people took offence because of the supernatural stuff after the season 2 finale when the show's premise is the departure, which is a supernatural event itself. A peculiar statement in my opinion, since the departure remains unexplained and just a big unknown. I don't see a justification to label it as supernatural like Lindelof does.

SomeBiscuit · May 2017

Man, poor Lindelof is never going to hear the end of this stuff. Aside from the fact that being "still pissed" about a show that ended 7 years ago is kinda ridiculous, to be honest, it really depends on what annoyed you about the Lost finale. Was it the lack of answers? They've already said that things like the Departure and "what's supernatural/what isn't" will never be answered, and they've been very good at wrapping up smaller-scale mysteries in seasons past. Was it the last-second spiritual twist? I can't see that happening this time. Was it that the finale prioritized characters over plot? The Leftovers has always prioritized characters over plot; that's the kind of show this is. I can't think of any way The Leftovers will fail to deliver on what it has promised in the finale myself.

An interesting note, though: Lindelof mentioned in a recent interview that the main problem with Lost was that it was open-ended for the first three seasons; they didn't know how long the show was going to run for until they finally negotiated an end-date with ABC. Because of this, according to Lindelof, they made decisions in those first three years that they wouldn't have otherwise, and that ended up leading to the finale that couldn't satisfy everyone's expectations of it. He specifically mentioned about how much better he feels about The Leftovers because of how concise it is, and how much easier it is to tell a complete story in 28 episodes than it is in 121. So, yeah. I don't think there's much reason to be worried, unless you're expecting different things out of this show than the rest of us.

Dee · May 2017

Well, mate - you criticised the sacred cow of TV, so you brought all that on yourself, really. ;-)

CretanBull · May 2017

I'm concerned. I hadn't been, but there have been more than a few moments recently in Leftovers that have reminded my of Lost and I can't help but worry. On the plus side, Lost declined over the seasons before the finale and Leftovers hasn't. My problem with Lost isn't with the finale itself, but how disappointing the lead up to the finale was...IMO in an effort to tie up all the loose ends they ended up with a story and explanation that didn't live up to the quality that the show had been. I can't help but worry with only a few episodes left and with so many unresolved issues that there might be a similarly rushed/unsatisfying wrap up coming our way.

Melonusk · May 2017

Can't people just watch the damn show until the end before drawing up conclusions, and not try to anticipate the worst case scenarios? I know it's hard not to because you love the show so you don't want to see it fail. I also haven't watched Lost and only heard/read how it went down vs what they promised before the end.

But I am very confident that Damon Lindelof is a smart person, learnt from his "mistakes" (I can't honestly say if he made mistakes or not on Lost but apparently he did), and along with his team will provide us with a satisfying ending. Now people please, let the mystery be [until episode 8] and enjoy the show.

Edit: and it's not all directed to you Jal, it's just that I've seen these comments & concerns for this show and for others recently and I find it frustrating.

CretanBull · May 2017

I get what you're saying, but I haven't seen anyone draw any conclusions ie the ending of Lost sucked, therefor the ending of Leftover will also suck. People are just sharing their anxiety based on a related past experience - and probably looking for supportive comments and information that will help them relieve those feelings.

CretanBull · May 2017

SomeBiscuit said:

An interesting note, though: Lindelof mentioned in a recent interview that the main problem with Lost was that it was open-ended for the first three seasons; they didn't know how long the show was going to run for until they finally negotiated an end-date with ABC. Because of this, according to Lindelof, they made decisions in those first three years that they wouldn't have otherwise, and that ended up leading to the finale that couldn't satisfy everyone's expectations of it. He specifically mentioned about how much better he feels about The Leftovers because of how concise it is, and how much easier it is to tell a complete story in 28 episodes than it is in 121. So, yeah. I don't think there's much reason to be worried, unless you're expecting different things out of this show than the rest of us.

This is what gives me the most hope. Lost had so much going on that by the end they had to chalk up a lot of unexplained things as ":Island rules" - it became a catch-all way of washing away all the things that didn't quite add up. The strength of the Leftovers (and I hope it remains this way!) is that they aren't promising answers, they don't need to explain things - they need to present things and let the viewers decide. If they can resist the temptation to make things concrete and take the viewer's subjectivity out the equation, I think it will work out just fine. My concern (expressed in the last episode thread) is that they seem to be tipping the scale in favour of making thing concrete and the potential problem that might be.

SomeBiscuit · May 2017

CretanBull said:

SomeBiscuit said:

An interesting note, though: Lindelof mentioned in a recent interview that the main problem with Lost was that it was open-ended for the first three seasons; they didn't know how long the show was going to run for until they finally negotiated an end-date with ABC. Because of this, according to Lindelof, they made decisions in those first three years that they wouldn't have otherwise, and that ended up leading to the finale that couldn't satisfy everyone's expectations of it. He specifically mentioned about how much better he feels about The Leftovers because of how concise it is, and how much easier it is to tell a complete story in 28 episodes than it is in 121. So, yeah. I don't think there's much reason to be worried, unless you're expecting different things out of this show than the rest of us.
This is what gives me the most hope. Lost had so much going on that by the end they had to chalk up a lot of unexplained things as ":Island rules" - it became a catch-all way of washing away all the things that didn't quite add up. The strength of the Leftovers (and I hope it remains this way!) is that they aren't promising answers, they don't need to explain things - they need to present things and let the viewers decide. If they can resist the temptation to make things concrete and take the viewer's subjectivity out the equation, I think it will work out just fine. My concern (expressed in the last episode thread) is that they seem to be tipping the scale in favour of making thing concrete and the potential problem that might be.

There isn't much in season 3 so far that's made me worry that they're explaining things too much or too little, but other people feel differently about that after the first three episodes. And that's fine! As much as I love the show, I don't mind hearing criticism of it - it just bothers me a bit when people are worried about the ending based solely on Lindelof's reputation as "the guy who screws up finales", and not because of anything in the show itself.

CretanBull · May 2017

SomeBiscuit said:

CretanBull said:

SomeBiscuit said:

An interesting note, though: Lindelof mentioned in a recent interview that the main problem with Lost was that it was open-ended for the first three seasons; they didn't know how long the show was going to run for until they finally negotiated an end-date with ABC. Because of this, according to Lindelof, they made decisions in those first three years that they wouldn't have otherwise, and that ended up leading to the finale that couldn't satisfy everyone's expectations of it. He specifically mentioned about how much better he feels about The Leftovers because of how concise it is, and how much easier it is to tell a complete story in 28 episodes than it is in 121. So, yeah. I don't think there's much reason to be worried, unless you're expecting different things out of this show than the rest of us.
This is what gives me the most hope. Lost had so much going on that by the end they had to chalk up a lot of unexplained things as ":Island rules" - it became a catch-all way of washing away all the things that didn't quite add up. The strength of the Leftovers (and I hope it remains this way!) is that they aren't promising answers, they don't need to explain things - they need to present things and let the viewers decide. If they can resist the temptation to make things concrete and take the viewer's subjectivity out the equation, I think it will work out just fine. My concern (expressed in the last episode thread) is that they seem to be tipping the scale in favour of making thing concrete and the potential problem that might be.
There isn't much in season 3 so far that's made me worry that they're explaining things too much or too little, but other people feel differently about that after the first three episodes. And that's fine! As much as I love the show, I don't mind hearing criticism of it - it just bothers me a bit when people are worried about the ending based solely on Lindelof's reputation as "the guy who screws up finales", and not because of anything in the show itself.

In short -

There's a pattern of Nora and Kevin Sr. being opposites. Most recently, Kevin Sr. is constantly making truths out of falsehoods (seeing meaning in things that aren't true) which - and this is a caveat - leads me to believe that the opposite is likely to be true of Nora. Meaning, the 'scam' that she thinks that she's investigating probably isn't a scam and is real. The idea that this machine might be sending people to those who departed (and possibly that the departed people might come back) is reinforced by Kevin Jr's taped conversation with Sr. regarding the ducks who go underwater and everyone thinks that they're gone (I think he says dead or drowned?), but they come back. This could be more ambiguity for us to weigh ourselves, but with the Jr/Sr hotel/tv conversation essentially confirmed (there may be a rational explanation that makes a remarkable coincidence possible) it seems like they are tilting towards provided answers rather than viewer interpretation.

However this show ultimately ends, I hope that two people could watch it - a science/rational person and a religious/mystic person - and each draw their own conclusion that can be fully supported. If the subjectivity of the viewer's interpretation remains intact when the show is done, I'll be happy.

toncica · May 2017

Isn't the best course of action to expect the worst? Then you're less likely to be disappointed.

I believe it will be quite similar to Lost. Back then I wasn't disappointed because that's what I expected, at least as far as the plot was concerned. The format of The Leftovers has worked much better and it looked like past mistakes won't be happening again. I've heard an interview with Lindelof on another podcast that has raised my concerns though. He says that he always comes back to the question of "what comes next?", meaning what's next to this current life. To say that nothing comes next (like Nora does in season 1) is apparently not a valid option, or else you wouldn't need to ponder the question again and again. That leads to a vague depiction of what could come next, it ultimately can't be known so it can't be too specific. That would be the Lost finale in a nutshell. In Lost it didn't matter what happened - it only mattered that you spent time with these characters. The drawback is that it's the most generic conclusion because it can be applied to literally any show.

Jujee · May 2017

Jal2071 said:
Is anyone else concerned that we are going to get Lindeloff'd at the end of the show? I'm still pissed about Lost. I admit I'm absolutely enthralled with the Leftovers but I can't help but prepare myself for the ending letting me down.

"It's not about the story, it's about the people" = I have no plan.

I was pissed there were no answers to the science side of Lost, and it would be cool to get an explanation to the "event," in the Leftovers, but I don't expect it at all. I also wouldn't let it ruin my day or beat my dog if someone was disappointed.

aberry89 · May 2017

The mission statement of Lost was to discover what the mystery was, the mission statement of the Leftovers is, whoever said there was a mystery?

Dude learned his lessons, by the writing of this show, you can tell. I think the Leftovers will give as much answers as Lost will in the end, except thsi time, it will be on purpose.

darwinfeeshy · May 2017

It was brave of you to come to the Mecca of The Leftovers and ask this.

I'm with you. I trust the writers because I've really enjoyed the Leftovers so far, but I always have this nagging worry in the back of my mind that there might be a wishy-washy, unsatisfying ending *cough cough Sopranos*.

I just want the series to end with the audience having a clear idea of what each character's future looks like. That's all. But either way, we'll always have the enjoyment from watching the show.

bizmarkiefader · May 2017

This show is probably not going to do well if you outline a box of what you think the ending should be and then grade it based on how well it fits in the box. The Leftovers has been so consistently great on its own terms I think it's earned approaching the finale with an open mind.

EMAW42 · May 2017

chuck1991 said:
I always wonder if I am the only person on the planet who thought the ending to LOST was great.

You're not alone dude! I thought Lost was amazing start to finish, and it unquestionably helped to revolutionize TV.

MichaelVCassidy · May 2017

Reni said:
When I saw the title I already knew what it was going to be about, and knew I was going to be pissed off about people STILL complaining about Lost. I still clicked on the thread. Why am I doing this to myself?

Kindred spirit, @Reni . I knew what was going to follow and I clicked anyway. I'm interested to know what the original poster thought the finale was. This guy here is clueless but represents a majority of people who talk about Lost and it makes zero sense to me

So many people just don't understand Losts end, like this guy

A_Ron_Hubbard · May 2017

No, no, no. There have been a dozen threads between the Lost people and the anti-Lost people. I've participated and explained myself in half of them. And yet people can't understand why people can't see things their way.

It's simple. You had a different subjective reaction to a work of art than they did, based on your past personal experiences and expectations for said work. That's it. There isn't some other explanation. They aren't missing anything. You don't have some intellectual or emotional key that's going to let you unlock the secret to us loving Lost. You're never going to be right, they're never going to be wrong, and vice versa. No matter how politely and flowery we state it, that's the rub. If anything, I'd say the pro-Lost faction might need to start heeding their own gut feelings about participation in anti-Lost threads.

Having said all that, I think people who are already tensing for the imagined Lindelof sucker punch at the end of The Leftovers are really ruining the experience for themselves. Regardless of how you feel about the man and how he handled Lost, everything he has said in public about The Leftovers, and the 2.5 seasons he's delivered at this point, should have really put you at ease. That's not to say he can't punch you in the face, it's just that, you know, being punched in the face at the end of the day never killed anyone, you'll be fine, and it's just TV, and all that constant vigilance just has to be interfering with your ability to connect with the material.

Plus, it seems that Perrotta is a great mediating influence on Lindelof. The book version of The Leftovers was a much more quiet, subdued, and straightforward affair. The TV show benefited greatly from Damon's showmanship. I think Tom cools Lindelof's jets when he starts to fly too close to the sun. He's also not forced to make 100+ episodes of The Leftovers, which necessarily leads to a lot of narrative fuzziness and dead ends.

So, be cool everybody. This will most likely be great. Check your religion, your expectations, your personal politics, and preconceived notions about how civilization works and just sing some karaoke even if you feel foolish for doing so. We'll all find our way home.

And if it's not amazing, I promise your voice will be heard and we'll make the ensuing train wreck as entertaining as humanly possible.

CretanBull · May 2017

MichaelVCassidy said:
so many people just don't understand Losts end, like this guy

In fairness though, there are tons of people who go it and understood exactly what happened and still didn't like it because IMO it was really poorly executed. When I complain about "how it ended" I'm not exclusively referring to the actual final scene or sequence of scenes, I'm referring to the entire denouement of the series and how ham-fistedly they tried to wrap things up. In the end, the quality of the explanation wasn't equal to the quality of the set up and I think betrayed a complete lack of planning. I think that they had a look at what they had to work with and retro-actively crafted a mythology that could work and used the super lazy and unsatisfying "island rules" loop hole to explain away everything else.

IMO the show went off the rails when they introduced time travel, it made it a lot harder to make things make sense after that - which is ironic because no doubt it was done to provide answers.

aberry89 · May 2017

I am come from an almost exac standpoint you do, although my anger over the ending was assuaged because I saw the writing on the wall around season four that the "mystery" was never going to be as fulfilling as the literally all other aspects of the show - acting, cinematography, charachter, music, etc, etc. And those other aspects, were so intenstly well done that my Lost ship kept afloat till the bitter end. And when it ended, I wasn't expecting it to be anything but what it was. I guess I harbor a little bit of resentment toward people that a) could not intuit that this mystery shit was going nowhere substantial (which is totally unfair of me, take full blame on that) or b) Wrote off the show as a failure because the mystery aspect didn't pay off.

love it or hate it, Lost raised the bar in ways we probably cannot even fully appreciate yet, as far as network tv drama goes, escepially in the steerign it toward a more cinemtaic expericnce. I really don't belive we would have shows like Fargo, The Americans, Mad Men, and the like if someone didn't introduce what could be critically and commercially possible on "regular" tv.

@CretanBull ;

Jal2071 · June 2017

Welp, hate to say I told you so. Go ahead apologists, defend that underwhelming ending....

SomeBiscuit · June 2017

@Jal2071 Well, personally I got the ending that I wanted. Looks like you did, too.

Jal2071 · June 2017

Look, I loved the show. I'm sad to see it go. My only point is that Lindelof is superb at creating universes and telling stories until the last act. He can't close. For his next project he needs to do the ground work and hand it off to another writer toward the end. Just my opinion.

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