World (Non-US) General Politics/Events Discussion

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  • DeeDee Adelaide
    @CretanBull The best thing about this is that Malcolm is such a suck up to Trump usually, and Trump is such a fragile egomaniac that this is bound to cause drama. I'm sure we will be seeing some tweets about how crap Australia is soon!
    CretanBull
  • Dee said:

    @CretanBull The best thing about this is that Malcolm is such a suck up to Trump usually, and Trump is such a fragile egomaniac that this is bound to cause drama. I'm sure we will be seeing some tweets about how crap Australia is soon!

    The one thing that might help Turnbull would be Trump going after him haha!
  • Alkaid13Alkaid13 Georgia
    edited June 2017
    https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/double-double-trudeau-and-trouble-canada-legalizes-witchcraft?utm_source=broadlynlus&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Broadly June 15 2017&utm_content=Broadly June 15 2017+CID_52e073e4db90b9d075e531f773a03e1d&utm_source=Campaign Monitor&utm_term=Canada Legalizes Witchcraft
    In some lighter news:
    Witchcraft is legal in Canada now, dueling is also legal but seeing as they still have laws against, you know, murdering guys, I'm guessing verbal duels are about the extent to which that particular removal covers.
  • Mostly this seems to be a redundancy thing with archaic laws having been replaced with newer, more comprehensive laws.
  • davemcbdavemcb Melbourne
    Knowing that mentioning guns in politics in the US is a big problem but in Australia it was just announced we are having our 2nd national gun Amnesty this year. We had one national one after the Port Arthur massacre, whilst there have been state based ones since its been rare.

    They are targeting 260,000 guns including uregiatered and illegal guns. Basically you can hand over any guns without any recourse for gabding them in. We have reasonably strict penalties for unregistered firearms.

    Recently we have had a few sieges and shootings that have used illegal firearms so the government is planning or getting rid of them. Personally i like the idea as it means more guns out of houses and off streets.

    Have other countries had similar firearm amnesty periods?
    Deeamyja89
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    edited June 2017
    davemcb said:

    Knowing that mentioning guns in politics in the US is a big problem but in Australia it was just announced we are having our 2nd national gun Amnesty this year. We had one national one after the Port Arthur massacre, whilst there have been state based ones since its been rare.

    They are targeting 260,000 guns including uregiatered and illegal guns. Basically you can hand over any guns without any recourse for gabding them in. We have reasonably strict penalties for unregistered firearms.

    Recently we have had a few sieges and shootings that have used illegal firearms so the government is planning or getting rid of them. Personally i like the idea as it means more guns out of houses and off streets.

    Have other countries had similar firearm amnesty periods?

    Yes, going by science it is a highly ineffective strategy. It doesn't help public safety and may even hurt it (easy way to get rid of evidence guns)

    Last time they tried this in Seattle some of us gun rights people got together outside the turn in and offered cash to the arrivals to buy the decent guns. So I like them in that way.

    But don't kid yourself, even in Australia it's solving no problems, the turned in guns were probably out of an estate or owned by people who never intended to commit a crime with them. In fact the only crime that was being committed in your case is a trumped up malum prohibitum paperwork offense that exists only because of the registration law. Nobody who ever was interested in actually hurting someone is going to these events. I'm guessing the number of murders prevented here is exactly 0

    In the US they try paying people to turn in guns and many gun enthusiasts with broken guns that aren't worth anything turn them in for the reward. Nobody considers gun turn ins a serious form of crime control. It's all about optics
    Brawn
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    @emnofseattle Mate, we don't have the weird obsessive need to cling to guns that America has. Don't worry about us, we're doing fine.
    CretanBullcdrive
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    edited June 2017
    Dee said:

    @emnofseattle Mate, we don't have the weird obsessive need to cling to guns that America has. Don't worry about us, we're doing fine.

    I've never worried about anything you've done.

    Actually I'm glad Australia passed all those laws, because it conclusively proves when US gun control activists say "oh no one wants to take your guns" it's a bald faced lie. Maybe if Hillary Clinton didn't go praising your laws she'd be president.

    And from conversations I've had with representatives from a Canadian gun rights group the mandatory turn ins provided the political ammunition needed to abolish the long arm registry in that country. So do what you want. Your bizarre set of laws actually benefit me!
  • amyja89amyja89 Oxford, England
    edited June 2017
    In the UK we had a huge gun amnesty after the Dunblane School massacre in the 90s, around 160,000 guns were handed over and destroyed.

    I was young at the time but Wikipedia tells me this is how the legal reaction went:

    In response to this public debate, the then-current Conservative government of John Major introduced the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997, which banned all cartridge ammunition handguns with the exception of .22 calibre single-shot weapons in England, Scotland and Wales, but following the 1997 General Election, the Labour government of Tony Blair introduced the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997, banning the remaining .22 cartridge handguns as well.[20] This left only muzzle-loading and historic handguns legal, as well as certain sporting handguns (e.g. "Long-Arms") that fall outside the Home Office definition of a "handgun" because of their dimensions.

    I've grown up in a country where the shooting of a single person makes headline news for days because it is so out of the ordinary, and I'm glad about that. Admittedly I don't know every detail of the gun control debate in the US, but I'm always left bewildered by the fact that pro-gun people cite the right to bear arms as a case closer, when those set of rules were laid out in a time when "cowboys and Indians" was still a thing. Times change!
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    edited June 2017
    @amyja89 I'm old enough to clearly remember Dunblane - it was around the same time as the Port Arthur massacre and it horrified our country too. There were headlines for days and op eds for weeks with people struggling to understand how something like that could happen. To this day I find it shocking.
  • amyja89amyja89 Oxford, England
    @Dee And then you look at something like Sandy Hook, even more dead children, and still nothing. It absolutely boggles my mind.

    I was 6 when Dunblane happened and it remains one of those early, hazy memories where you know something significant has occurred but you don't have the capacity to break it down. I remember our school having special assemblies and things like that.
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    @amyja89 Sandy Hook is when I realised nothing will ever change in the US when it comes to gun control. If two dozen dead children can't do it, nothing else will. :-(
    amyja89CretanBulltrippycdrive
  • davemcbdavemcb Melbourne
    @emnofseattle i know i will regret making comments because of the nature of gun control debates in the US. Based on one mass shooting (Port Arthur) our laws changed. Yes we banned some types of semi-auto rifles as well as pump action and semi-auto shot guns the government bought back those weapons estimated at around 1m firearms. But we also offered a gun amnesty for any other firearms

    Since then all studies have shown that firearm related murders decreased over the next 10 years by 60%. Suicide by firearms also declined over that period and time and have continued to decline since.

    I personally have no issue with responsible gun ownership but some people out there with guns shouldn't have them even if they are covered by their rights to bear them.

    @amyja89 we also have the same thing in regards to any shooting be massive news here. We have had 2 in the last month and people are loosing their minds. But the last few instances over the last 3 years have all been guns sourced illegally.

    I dont remember Dunblane but have read about it such a horrible event. Port Arthur was such enormous news here and has been since, im just glad some good came out of such a tragedy.
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    edited June 2017
    davemcb said:

    @emnofseattle i know i will regret making comments because of the nature of gun control debates in the US. Based on one mass shooting (Port Arthur) our laws changed. Yes we banned some types of semi-auto rifles as well as pump action and semi-auto shot guns the government bought back those weapons estimated at around 1m firearms. But we also offered a gun amnesty for any other firearms

    Since then all studies have shown that firearm related murders decreased over the next 10 years by 60%. Suicide by firearms also declined over that period and time and have continued to decline since.

    I personally have no issue with responsible gun ownership but some people out there with guns shouldn't have them even if they are covered by their rights to bear them.
    .

    No need for regret. I'm always game for a discussion. Just to clarify, I don't actually care what the laws are Australia, you guys have your own society run it how you want. But if you wish to use your laws to criticize ours, well then we can have a discussion there.

    This is a common argument that's worded to make gun control sound effective "well GUN homicides went down" well part of the gun rights argument is that gun legislation doesn't reduce murders in general because murder can be conducted with many different types of weapons or no weapons at all. So "gun murders" is a politically invented concept, we need to look at murder rate period, which dropped by about the same number, 40 percent which was the exact same level of decrease in the US murder rate in the same year range. so probably a decline you would have experienced anyway. And I'm wondering if anyone compiles statistics on deaths in mass killings irregardless of method because I've read lists before of various killings carried out by arson with 8, 10, 15 fatalities since the firearm legislation. Someone should do a study on substitution in that regard

    International comparison also shows your homicide rate is slightly higher then New Zealand which did not impose laws anywhere near as strict. Canada while having an overall higher homicide rate does not have issues with mass shootings and pistols and semi auto rifles are widely available there with Pump guns and some AR variants not even requiring registration.


    Brawn
  • Alkaid13 said:

    https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/double-double-trudeau-and-trouble-canada-legalizes-witchcraft?utm_source=broadlynlus&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Broadly June 15 2017&utm_content=Broadly June 15 2017+CID_52e073e4db90b9d075e531f773a03e1d&utm_source=Campaign Monitor&utm_term=Canada Legalizes Witchcraft
    In some lighter news:
    Witchcraft is legal in Canada now, dueling is also legal but seeing as they still have laws against, you know, murdering guys, I'm guessing verbal duels are about the extent to which that particular removal covers.

    Oh boy...I wish I read the fine print before demanding satisfaction last night.
    Alkaid13GredalBeeBrawn
  • davemcbdavemcb Melbourne
    @emnofseattle i do regret this because I'm struggling to see how i criticized any of your laws in what i said. All i gave were Australian stats and examples. We have had nothing close to the event of Port Arthur since and yes the 2 largest mass killings since have been arson but we have seen other elements related linked to gun related violence decrease.

    I personally am not a gun user nor plan on ever being one but at the same time i understand your position and your rights to that position. If you are a responsibile gun user than you should be able to see the other side of the arguement. If yiubhad a dangerous driver you take their car and license away from them. Yes it doesnt stop them from driving and injuring someone else but it makes it a hell of a lot harder.

    As a note the guns used in Port Arthur that were purchased legally by a paranoid schizophrenic were a L1A1 SLR Battle Rifle and a Colt AR-15 SP1. That is the reason why we changed our laws because a lone gunman killed 35 and injured 24.

  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    edited June 2017
    amyja89 said:

    @Dee And then you look at something like Sandy Hook, even more dead children, and still nothing. It absolutely boggles my mind.


    I was 6 when Dunblane happened and it remains one of those early, hazy memories where you know something significant has occurred but you don't have the capacity to break it down. I remember our school having special assemblies and things like that.



    I dunno, I was 7 when Columbine happened, what's interesting about Columbine is two survivors of that shooting are now serving as elected officials, one in Washington as a state legislator, one in Colorado also a state legislator, both are NRA A rated, strong pro gun rights voting record. Most of us who support gun rights do not believe gun control will do anything, which is why no new gun laws were passed. Because apparently even survivors of such a shooting will not vote for new laws even as elected officials years later

    Brawn
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    davemcb said:

    @emnofseattle i do regret this because I'm struggling to see how i criticized any of your laws in what i said. All i gave were Australian stats and examples. We have had nothing close to the event of Port Arthur since and yes the 2 largest mass killings since have been arson but we have seen other elements related linked to gun related violence decrease.

    I personally am not a gun user nor plan on ever being one but at the same time i understand your position and your rights to that position. If you are a responsibile gun user than you should be able to see the other side of the arguement. If yiubhad a dangerous driver you take their car and license away from them. Yes it doesnt stop them from driving and injuring someone else but it makes it a hell of a lot harder.

    As a note the guns used in Port Arthur that were purchased legally by a paranoid schizophrenic were a L1A1 SLR Battle Rifle and a Colt AR-15 SP1. That is the reason why we changed our laws because a lone gunman killed 35 and injured 24.

    Well again I don't view "gun violence" stastics as valid for crime purposes. because the only reason to even keep a gun violence statistic is to politically demonize guns, it isn't at all useful for criminal justice purposes in any other way. 

    I'll give you an example, the Czech Republic's rate of "gun homicide" is several times higher then the United Kingdom, despite the CR having a homicide rate lower then the United Kingdom. 0.92 for UK and 0.75 for CR. now which is a safer country if you're going only be statistics? how is gun homicide a relevant factor into that? it's not, is the answer. because it's a measure only of the proportion of homicides committed with firearms compared with the number of homicides in that country. If Country A has ten murders a year and B has 100 murders per year, but only 10 murders with guns versus all 10 of A's murders are with guns, then country A would have a gun homicide rate ten times that of B (assuming equal population on both) but which is the safer country? 

    now Australia has lower crime then the US, including an intentional homicide rate only a quarter of ours. but gun legislation is not the likely cause of that, because Australia's homicide rate has pegged ours at 25-35% of, for decades. when yours was 1.9 I think in the 90s ours was 6, and now that it's 0.9 ours is like 4.3 or something. 

    As far as cars I don't know what your vehicle legislation is like, but the comparison is faulty because in the US you never actually lose the legal ability to own an automobile. in all 50 states in the US a drivers license, vehicle plates, insurance, etc is only required for operation on a public highway or street. If I wanted to buy a car, and not register it and put no plates on it and let my drivers license lapse and I parked this car in my carport and never moved it, this would be 100% legal. the only ever suspend your drivers license here, so if you get pulled over you can be ticketed/arrested for having no license, but you can purchase a car with no drivers license and title it and everything, you just can't drive it in public. So we do not take people's cars away for bad driving nor ban them from owning cars. 


    Brawn
  • davemcbdavemcb Melbourne
    @emnofseattle in these comments you're never going to agree on anything that restricts people on accessing guns because whatever I say is Fake News, but I'm cool with that you have your beliefs I have mine. I believe that there should be background checks, training to ensure you can properly use a firearm as well as properly store a firearm. Again I have no issue with responsible gun owners who do the right thing but that is not everybody. 

    Here everyone must have a licence to buy a firearm, have a reason for it, be able to store it correctly, 28 day waiting periods and registration is compulsory. How is that a bad thing for people that want to use guns responsibly? 

    One thing I have learned in business over the years is any number can be delivered in a way that tells the story that you want it to tell, there are numbers that pro-gun people use as proof that controls have no impact on any societal statistics where are pro-control people use stats that show where controls have been a success like I believe we have had in Australia. 

    Also in Victoria if you are a "hoon" driver the Police can permanently confiscate your car and if you are caught driving unlicensed you can be jailed for 2 years. 
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    As ever with the internet, a non-US political discussion comes to be dominated and taken over by the tediously never-ending America rah rah guns argument.
    KingKobradavemcbphoenyx1023
  • davemcbdavemcb Melbourne
    Sorry @Dee it wasn't my intention with my initial post hence why I posted it in the non-US discussion
    Dee
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    Oh, I'm not blaming anyone in particular, @davemcb - it's not like I didn't weigh into it myself. It's just one of those topics that takes over everything. :-/
    davemcbKingKobra
  • So yeah, it would be nice if we had more international participation. Those of us in the US really can only give opinions, which matter little compared to those directly affected by the news we see. Hopefully we get more intl members and less "input" from those in the US ;)
  • ceburaskaceburaska London, England, United Kingdom, European Union (but not for long)
    Ok as a non US-er, I will chip in.
    WE ARE ALL DOOMED.
    Sorry.
    Only the French results are (mildly) positive. But Le Pen is up 50% on her dad, and Macron is completely an unknown. If he fails I fear for the worst.
    At least in the UK the UKIP nutters collapsed, and the Scottish separatists/ "valiant freedom fighters" fell back. Otherwise it was the most depressing election in my lifetime.
    With Trump and Le Pen on the right and Corbyn on the left, I fear for Eastern Europe.
    If Putin tries it on in the Baltics he can collapse NATO and the EU in one go.
    Yep, really digging Ligotti at the moment, I need something cheerful.
  • bizmarkiefaderbizmarkiefader San Francisco
    http://fusion.kinja.com/muslims-in-london-shielded-the-madman-who-tried-to-murd-1796219493?utm_source=recirculation&utm_medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=mondayAM

    Speaking with BuzzFeed, witness Abdulrahman Saleh Alamoudi described
    the chaotic scene as the alleged attacker was detained by members of the
    community.

    “I held him, he was screaming before that he was saying ‘I’m going to kill all Muslims’.” Alamoudi said. “He
    was throwing punches all over then we managed to get him on the floor.
    Then we managed to get him on the floor, and he was saying: ‘oh kill me,
    kill me’. We said: ‘we’re not going to kill you, why did you do that?’
    and he wouldn’t say anything.”

  • DeeDee Adelaide
    ceburaska said:

    Ok as a non US-er, I will chip in.
    WE ARE ALL DOOMED.
    Sorry.
    Only the French results are (mildly) positive. But Le Pen is up 50% on her dad, and Macron is completely an unknown. If he fails I fear for the worst.
    At least in the UK the UKIP nutters collapsed, and the Scottish separatists/ "valiant freedom fighters" fell back. Otherwise it was the most depressing election in my lifetime.
    With Trump and Le Pen on the right and Corbyn on the left, I fear for Eastern Europe.
    If Putin tries it on in the Baltics he can collapse NATO and the EU in one go.
    Yep, really digging Ligotti at the moment, I need something cheerful.

    Didn't Macron's lot sweep their election? I don't know much about his politics, I picture him as a bit of a Justin Trudeau type?
  • ceburaskaceburaska London, England, United Kingdom, European Union (but not for long)
    @dee I'm afraid I am much more pessimistic.
    Hollande was elected on a far left platform and implemented nothing.
    My fear is Macron does something similar.
    Except, no one really knows his plan.
    Net result, ten years from now Le Pen wins.
    Or I am really reading too much Ligotti recently.
    Dee
  • bizmarkiefaderbizmarkiefader San Francisco
    @trippy No he wasn't, and I'm glad they didn't do him the mercy of killing him so he gets to face what he did in the cold, sober light.
    trippy
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    I'm waiting for the articles about how he was a nice guy, driven to extremism by unemployment, lone wolf with mental health issues, blah blah blah...
    ceburaska
  • bizmarkiefaderbizmarkiefader San Francisco
    image

    Who could say what could cause something like this. Must be a crazy person.
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