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  • 806 - The Iron Throne

    Mthomp32 said:
    I doubt the show would have generated nearly the audience and critical acclaim it had had it started off with the quality of the last few seasons. Disappointing people is a tough thing, the D&D’s cut short the end on purpose. I don’t know why they apparently don’t have the sense of ownership for Game of Thrones that the Villigang have for the Breaking Bad world.   I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to think you could’ve found people to do the last few seasons better. 

    Dividing the blame between GRRM and he D&Ds is purely academic. It’s the end product that matters. 

    Have you considered the idea that the fandom is actually honest? That there’s actually a significant quality drop off that people are legitimately complaining about?  Look at Mr. Robot for example, the 2nd season was crapped on but I’m pretty sure the overwhelming majority of fans have climbed back on board after Season 3. The opposite has been happening with GoT 
    Mthomp32 said:
    A ron sounds so sad/angry in this final episode. I genuinely feel bummed listening to it. 

    I’ve noticed those who are really invested in the series (a lot of podcasters and journalists who comment and critique on the show) are totally outside of themselves. Everyone I’ve spoken to about this season (IRL) loves it and felt the conclusion was pretty fitting given that there is absolutely zero source material - meaning the story is inevitably less complex and truncated. But those people don’t geek out as much as me and listen to podcasts etc. I think the a rons and Dave Chen’s and Mallory rubins of the world have lost sight of two things:

    1) it’s not you’re show. Might sound harsh but this show doesn’t belong to the fans. All of the creative decisions that you’re all lambasting were made with the intention to create the best thing they could (Also *they have no books*). Every critique I’ve heard is essentially around how said commentator would have set it up better...than the Sophie turner said in her ET interview this week: that is disrespectful (and honestly kind of delusional).  

    2) you - the thought leaders in this community - have an outsized impact on the general conversation online. So it’s a bit of a viscous cycle. Joanna Robinson writes 6 articles that come out 30 seconds after the show ends about how the show runners fucked up and then records 3 podcasts about how everyone thinks they fucked up? That’s a bit crazy making as a listened.  

    Ultimately, it used to be really fun to hear you all dissect and critique the show (talk about what you liked and didn’t like) but it’s become suuuuper depressing since the show ran past the books. 

    I want to state that this ending is pretty gorgeous IMO and the breaks in logic and storytelling are easy to forgive for me because (as George stated last week) the creators are missing approximately 3,000 pages of story. 

    That’s a really fair point. I believe the fandom is honest - I feel for the folks who are really sad/disappointed about the ending of the show. I guess I’m just surprised that such devoted fans seemingly overlook the impossible odds that the creators were up against. That said, I don’t think anyone is wrong for hating this ending. It’s just a huge bummer to read/listen to. 

    Also: I think it’s totally fair to hate the end of the series but kind of weird to suggest that anyone knew a better way. There has never been a story that’s been told like this (I actually don’t think Lost, breaking bad, or any original series is actually comparable other than that fact that they were on tv and they were wildly popular).  The closest comparison I can think of is true blood and when they changed show runners the show became a complete joke. In hindsight it’s easy to say they could have done it differently but 3+ years ago when the we’re making decisions about how to finish the series they didn’t have all the info we have today. It just seems really cheap and easy to say f u to the DDs after all is said and done and I feel like that part of the post-show discourse is unproductive and just really a bummer. 
    It's not weird at all to suggest that someone else could have done it better. As was mentioned on the show D&D signed up to be adapters, not creators, once creation became necessary if that was something they did not want to do or could not do well they should have passed the torch.  The comparison to Lost is absolutely accurate because what happened in the end and how the fans felt about it is eerily similar, so similar in fact that D&D had a template of what NOT to do and then followed that same path.  People disliked the end to lost because the show set up a collection of plotlines and character arcs that not only did they refuse to payoff or resolve, but essentially told the audience that nothing they'd watched or paid attention to over the years mattered.  For those who invested time in watching and caring that felt like a huge F-U from the show. People felt cheated, and that's essentially what's happening with GOT ... Additionally D&D had a level of control/freedom over GOT that most showrunners don't have so when things don't go well it is more their "fault" ... they've said they wanted certain changes to create surprises ... the general impression is that many if not most of those changes came at the expense of the storytelling.  I think it's great that Jim and ARon are willing to be honest and transparent in their feelings and feedback, why should that be a bummer? As a person who enjoys analysis, I come for the research and well thought out discourse, not just to stan for the show and/or the creators.
    ken haletelephoneofmadnessavcpl